not quite right...

[texassourdough]

Re: not quite right...

Hi lwood!

I am almost ten years into this and I did the same bread almost every week for a year a half. It was only about three years ago I really started doing other breads very much. And, at first I was less consistent but you learn a lot by doing only one bread because there are variations. You sense it isn't ready and you bake it anyway, you are out of BF and go AP, you change hydration a bit. When your loaves are repeatable you learn from these variations. When you change things all the time, you can't find the pattern and it is confusing.

I used BF (14.5% protein) for six years and worked mainly at 68 percent hydration. About two years ago I started going to AP (11.7%) and have worked my hydration and hanling ability up to around 75%. (That would have been scary two years ago!) I am varying the flour I use all the way down to 30% Gold Medal AP (10.5 % protein) and 70% Pastry (8.5%) when I make banh mi to get as delicate a crumb as possible.

While I cannot make the same bread/crumb/crust from any flour I am amazed at the level range of textures and overlaps I can get from different flours.

I have no idea what flours are available in the Phillipines (at least at reasonable costs!). For artisanal loaves higher protein has some big advantages because it is stronger and less fragile so you can handle it rougher. My banh mi are very fragile and have to be handled very carefully. If you really want to use higher protein flour you might be better off using a lower protein flour and adding Vital Wheat Gluten if you can get it. I have never used it because I have good access to various flours but comments from others suggest it works well.

Hang in there! With time and experience it can happen!
Jay

[lwood]

Re: not quite right...

Thanks Jay for the encouraging words. will try the higher hydration and let you know.

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

Just wondering as I'm going to bake later today... I would say that each time I've taken the ADIF out of the fridge, I don't seem to get a lot of rise prior to baking. The first rise goes great (made yesterday), and the house temps and other variables seem to be consistent... any ideas? I do have a spot in the kitchen that is warmer and would provide a good proofing box, but just wondering if anyone has any other potential problem(s) that might exist.

I used a 45/45/10 (KABF/KAAP/whole wheat) mostly because it was what I had.. I needed a bit more water with that mixture too. Kitchen scale today!!!

[texassourdough]

Re: not quite right...

Hi Tman!

I personally don't like to retard sourdough. It seems to really mess up my rise because my yeast seems really sensitive to cold. It takes forever for it to get going again. Using a warm proofing box would be good. The timing of all this gets really complicated. I think it is far better to learn to do SD at ambient or slightly elevated temps and get where you are consistent and know what "proper" dough feels like for baking before messing around with retards.

That said, I like retards on breads using commercial yeast because the extended time gives flavor that compensates for the lack of sourdough.

Good Luck!
Jay

[azpizzanut]

Re: not quite right...

Hello Tman,

Refrigerated dough leaves a cold spot on my kitchen counter. The top of the dough gets a good rise but the bottom is under-proofed. So, I place a heating pad under a towel and a large Tupperware bowl over the top. It works every time, just don't let it proof too long. You'll know when it looks right. I do one loaf per week so this method suits my needs.

Cheers,

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

Oh Jay, if I only understood what your saying.. I hear you, but it doesn't compute. It thought you were SUPPOSED to let it ferment (but you used the word retard)....

I know you said to stick with a basic recipe, and I want to.. I just had these flours and needed to make something

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

AZ,

I hadn't thought about that.. I'll try and figure something out... I could put parchment on a pizza screen, and place it on the burners of my stove (gas off of course), but that would allow air under the boulle as well and maybe help?

Either way, I'm going to plan on a longer rise time.

[splatgirl]

Re: not quite right...

Jay is saying that he does not like to do a cold retard (rise) with his sourdough.
I tend to agree. It can be sketchy even with a starter and dough you know well.

In general, the point of a cold retard (or ferment, if you like that term better) is to develop better flavor, and IME, sourdough doesn't need it. Or at least there is not enough of a flavor benefit to offset the weirdness and extra time it takes to get going again. With IDY doughs, OTOH, it's almost a requirement if you want good flavor.

All of that said, I have/do cold retard my sourdoughs from time to time, and it's a handy card to know how to play for the times when you run into a schedule problem.

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

Well, I'm just doing ABIF from scratch (no starter), so I'm assuming the dough needs the overnight in the fridge to gain flavor.

Splat-you'll have to give me something to start with (sourdough).. eventually. I need to get this basic stuff down first.


Curious question; how deep do you make the slashes? I usually try for at least a 1/4, maybe 3/8", but I'm think ing i should go even more as the loaves always push them to their max.

[splatgirl]

Re: not quite right...

And if the goal is gringe, in addition to the hydration, state of proof, and slashing, the biggest thing for me is the oven humidity. Even with all the other factors deemed ideal, I had never gotten good gringe in the indoor oven until I started using the cloche/cooker technique. Freestanding on a stone, even humidifying the best I could, I never got really achieved gringe or rip.
In the WFO, I need a fully loaded oven and extra humidification. Even then, I'm not sure I'll ever get as nice a rip/gringe as with the combo cooker technique.

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

Here's a couple of pics from this bake... I really think that Pampered Chef cookie sheet is not a good option. The bottom of the loaf was still a little doughy, but I hit 205 and my wife needed the oven. I had seen somewhere that I could make a pizza on a screen, do you think that would work, or should I get a proper stone for this?

It looked great going in (at least from what I know).

[texassourdough]

Re: not quite right...

Hi Tman!

The term retard is used for fermenting in the cold to "retard" the fermentation rate. It works well with IDY (instant yeast) because the enzymes work on the flour longer and develop more flavor compounds and IDY is a quite a bit more robust in the cold and will give some rise in the fridge and grow aggressively as the dough warms.

Most sourdoughs don't respond so well and you have plenty of flavor from the OLD flour that is in the sourdough and levain (assuming you do a two step expansion).

WRT your flours, I understand, we all end up with odds and ends we need to use. No problem except that, while learning, it makes it harder to learn. If you shoot for 64 to 68% hydration for bread flour it should be manageable, and 62 to 64 for AP should be manageable. (I.e. not be a sticky mess, nor a dense blob). A 50/50 blend should be around 65 in my experience. Adding WW will let you increase the water a bit - maybe one to four percent.

Hang in there! You will find something that works for you!
Jay

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

Well, I've got another boulle to go into the oven... I thought I had an old tile from the entry floor laying around, but I guess not. I'll use the stone cookie sheet one last time. I did however purchase a scale today, so at least I got that goin' for me.

I did use at least a 1/2 cup more water with this flour mixture, and it probably could've used a little more, but it's pretty close to ABIF standards.

[texassourdough]

Re: not quite right...

After 10 years of scaling dough mixing I can very reliably make dough by touch, but...I prefer scaling. I hink you will find it will help greatly in creating consistent products!

Good Luck!
Jay

[splatgirl]

Re: not quite right...

If the "pampered chef cookie pan" is their baking stone, it'll work fine. Until the two I was using broke into more pieces than I want to deal with, they were doing well by me.
What Jay said before---you need to preheat stone, cloche or pot for at least an hour.
A less than adequate preheat of the stone is the only reason you'd get an underbaked bottom like that assuming your oven is working properly.

The ABIF recipes are volume vs. weight and extremely lax on the technique end of things, IMO. It's bread baking for dummies, which absolutely has it's place, but if you really want to learn how to bake great bread, it's not the book to work from.