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  • #16
    Re: Today's Bread!

    Window pane is taking a ball of dough (once it is reasonably mixed - won't really work on dough that still has dry stuff) and stretching it (and rotating it to stretch it somewhat uniformly to see how thin a "window pane" you can get before it tears. With really well developed doughs you can get a pane that is sort of clear and more or less able to read a newspaper through. That is TOO MUCH development for rustic breads and baguettes.

    If you try it on a few doughs I think you will find that a no-knead dough, for example, will be highly extendible but will tear fairly easily - it will get thin but will remain whitish and opaque. It is still capable of making a good loaf but it can't take much handling or shaping without degassing. So you dump it in a dutch oven so it doesn't have to be touched. (and the tight/closed confines of the dutch oven traps humidity to give a good crust.)

    At SFBI they mix until the dough is to a point where the dough yields a window pane that is still somewhat ragged - about half to 2/3 opaque (mainly strings/globs of opacity) with the rest somewhat clear and thin. If there are big globs of opacity it still isn't mixed well and it will tear early. This optimal mix will let you get a "window" (or at least be close) before it tears. While this is ideal it is certainly not necessary. I often mix a bit short and rely on the autolyse/rest to help finish the dough by forming the gluten and then rearranging it in the S&Fs.

    SFBI follows the mixing in tubs with S&Fs every 30 minutes for up to two hours in an approximately 3 hour bulk proof. The dough is done (i.e. no more S&Fs or working during the bulk ferment) when it has the right "bouncy" smooth feel and that will typically correspond to a window pane that is about 1/4 to 1/3 threads (small cords) of opacity passing through a relatively thin/clear window.

    Obviously words are not very precise for describing this but that is about the best I can do. Pictures don't work in my experience either so... Hands on experience is the best way to learn it.

    What this working accomplishes is that it creates a dough that has the gluten well developed and organized and a dough that is strong enough to survive being shaped and formed into loaves that can typically stand alone (i.e. proof on a sheet of linen) and stand up to being flipped over and onto a peel without degassing significantly. It is not that underdevelopment yields bad bread so much as that the loaves will tend to degas more and you will get flatter loaves with less oven spring. (assuming proper proofing). Proper development is most critical for breads like baguettes that have a lot of handling and some of the big loaves (Pane di Genzano weighing 4 to 8 pounds that are like giant pillows and will fall like a cake if not properly developed.) and for breads like batards where you want to create a tight loaf so you can get a dramatic split/rip. But you can make really lovely loves with underdeveloped dough. Overdeveloped can be tough and lose taste - especially if it is overmixed and oxidized.

    That feels like an enclyclopedic answer!
    Jay
    Last edited by texassourdough; 12-15-2011, 09:37 AM.

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    • #17
      Re: Today's Bread!

      Originally posted by texassourdough View Post
      ....snip....
      Obviously words are not very precise for describing this but that is about the best I can do. Pictures don't work in my experience either so... Hands on experience is the best way to learn it.
      ....snip....
      Jay
      "Worms Roxanne, Worms!"


      Interesting reading Jay, thanks.
      Lee B.
      DFW area, Texas, USA

      If you are thinking about building a brick oven, my advice is Here.

      I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up.

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      • #18
        Re: Today's Bread!

        Thanks Jay,
        This is a lot more complicated than I thought. I just want to do a couple of loaves at a time as my oven is quite small, how much bread can you eat?
        In order to make things easy and simple I use my bread maker on the dough setting, then remove the dough after it has mixed and risen then knead it a little, or refrigerate it. When the loaves are formed I place them on trays to rise, so I don't have to rehandle them and risk collapse (degassing) This seems to work well for me. Do you think I should be doing it differently?
        Dave
        Kindled with zeal and fired with passion.

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        • #19
          Re: Today's Bread!

          David,

          Bread, like many things can be as simple as a bread machine or as complicated as you want it to be. If you’re happy with what you’re getting right now, be happy, and when and if you want to explore different areas of bread making then do.

          If you want a good starter to intermediate book then I can recommend “Peter Reinhart's Artisan Breads Every Day”. It’s simple to get started and has enough depth to hold you for quite a while.

          Chris

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          • #20
            Re: Today's Bread!

            It's not so much complicated as it takes time. I made gorgeous loaves today and didn't pull a window to test. I probably should, but touch told me it was right. I did two full S&Fs the first time and one the second.

            The advantage of the bread maker is that it handles the dough prep without much effort. I devote a half to 3/4 day to bread when I bake. The activity is intermittent but I have to check on progress and pay attention so it is not trivial. (But it is also therapeutic for me) From what I have heard a lot of bread makers do a pretty good job on dough. I have never seen breadmakers give the open crumb I like but... I have confidence one can make better dough and worse than a bread maker. I suspect the biggest advantage is in making wet dough which I would expect to be a problem in a bread maker.

            From what you have said you are happy with your bread so I would say keep doing it. If you decide you want something different you may or may not be able to do it with the bread maker and then the answer is clearer, but the learning curve/hassle may be bigger than you want to face - or it may not!

            Fresh baked bread almost always makes people happy!
            Jay

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            • #21
              Re: Today's Bread!

              S&F = stretch and fold. An alternative to traditional kneading as a means of developing the gluten.

              Karl

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              • #22
                Re: Today's Bread!

                Originally posted by kmrice View Post
                S&F = stretch and fold. An alternative to traditional kneading as a means of developing the gluten.

                Karl
                That is the method my DW uses when we make Ciabatta. She learned it from Ciril Hitz at the (WFO) Kneading Conference in Maine a few years ago. We plan on a firing later today to bake a load of breads. Probably Ciabatta and Baguettes all using a sour dough polish made with Neapolitan starter.

                I better get to work now wasting too much time online at breakfast.

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                • #23
                  Re: Today's Bread!

                  Clean up is now complete. Fired up oven and did 5 pizze with left over dough from last week for lunch. Swept out the oven and let her rest for an hour. Then did a load consisting of three ciabiatta, three baguettes with cheese in the lame slits, and two whole wheat gorgonzola and walnut baguettes. Pulled them out and put in a lasagna for dinner and then two half trays of eggplant parm. Dishes are done, kids are home, house is quite now. Time to rest with a glass of grappa.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Today's Bread!

                    Sounds like a successful day!
                    Jay

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                    • #25
                      Re: Today's Bread!

                      Jay,

                      I am a relatively new member and slowly working on a WFO and have been learning to make sourdough bread for about a year or so. You seem to have it pretty wired so you might know why my loaves don't spring in the oven. I get a good rise during bulk ferment and proof, but when I slash prior to baking the loaf seems to deflate and never or only slightly recovers. I've even tried not slashing with the same results. The bread doesn't turn out too bad but just looks wrong! What is your experience with oven spring problems?

                      Fabulous looking loaves, by the way. I have a couple of Rhinehart's books and follow his basic techniques.

                      Thanks and regards,

                      Joe

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                      • #26
                        Re: Today's Bread!

                        I am no expert but sometimes when we let it proof too long that happens. So I would watch the timing of the final proof and avoid handling the loaf to roughly before putting it into the oven.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Today's Bread!

                          Breadjunkie,

                          Sounds like overproofing. If your bread is not expanding significantly upon being placed in the oven (even with no slash at all), that sounds like over proofed bread to me.

                          What is the time line on your bulk fermment and loaf proof time? If you are over four and a half hours (all in) at 75 degrees or better...you are likely over proofed.

                          Hopefully Jay, Faith, or Chris will chime in.

                          As always...need photos to get the full picture.

                          Bill

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                          • #28
                            Re: Today's Bread!

                            As others said, almost certainly overproofed. Loaf forming has minor effects but...almost certainly overproofed.

                            Another factor which SHOULD be mentioned is your hearth/stone temp. Since you are working on a WFO I presume you are baking in an oven. The stone needs to be well heated. I allow an hour and I often heat the stone to temps above my baking temp - 475 to 500 when I will bake at 440 to 455. It does invite errors of resetting the temp but it also tends to give just a bit more oven spring. An underheated stone will not give good spring.

                            You don't mention times, but a healthy, robust sourdough starter using about a 4 to 1 expansion in the final expansion (water and flour totals 4 times the weight of the preferment) will typically need about 3 hours of bulk ferment and about 3 to 5 hours of proofing. Try cutting your proof time by a third or even half. And shorten your bulk if it is over three hours or you have a warm proofing area. (in Port Townsend???? ) The reason to change it a lot is to help you learn what underproofing does. Once you are on both sides of the proof you want, you cn interpolate and get a lot closer.

                            One last comment. Consistency really pays with sourdough. Making sure your starter is really robust (I often feed in the morning before I make my preferment (and sometimes twice by feeding the evening before that) This way the yeast is really active when I mix my final dough! If you aren't weighing, do so. Consistency makes sourdough a lot more predictable!

                            Good Luck!
                            Jay

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                            • #29
                              Re: Today's Bread!

                              Thanks to all for the responses. I think over proofing is definitely a possibility even though my proofing time is usually about 3 to 4 hours. However, I should explain my whole process. I start by taking about 40 grams of starter, feeding it with 40 gr of flour and water. ( I am using a spelt starter) I let this build over night at room temp. Next I make a sponge (preferment?) using 100 gr of this and 100 gr spelt flour and 50 gr water. When this has doubled in volume I make the dough using AP flour, water, salt, and a tsp of diastatic malt powder. I keep it fairly wet and sticky. After kneading for about 10 minutes I let it ferment until it has doubled. Usually about 6 hours. The temperature here lately in my kitchen has been in the high 60's. Then I gently transfer it to the board and fold it into a loaf and place it in a banneton trying not to degas in the process. This goes immediately into the fridge. In the morning I remove it and let it proof for the 3 or 4 hours. I preheat the oven to 500 deg and then lower it to 450 when I put the loaf in. It bakes on a stone under a roasting pan for 15 minutes then finishes uncovered.
                              I have noticed that it does expand in the fridge so maybe a shorter proof time after it comes out will solve my problem. I guess I should try skipping the final retard and just go directly to proof and bake.
                              Thanks Jay for the suggestion to under proof to see where I'm at. That's a good idea. One thing I have learned is if it's not working you have to change something!

                              Thanks again to all. What a great resource we have here.

                              Joe

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                              • #30
                                Re: Today's Bread!

                                Thanks, Joe...

                                40 plus 40/40 is not enough food! Your starter should more than use that up in 8 to 10 hours. 20 plus 40/40 would be a better ratio. And it should be peaking the next morning in say 10 to 12 hours. Your total time for the final dough is awfully long. Six hours is a very long bulk ferment at room temp. I would cut that in half - maybe even to two hours if you are going to add a retard too. My personal starter doesn't particularly like retards and has a hard time getting going again after being cold. But it does get a significant amount of expansion in the fridge before it gets too cold. You could probably do okay with a two hour bulk, form the loaf, retard, and give it only a two or three hour proof out of the fridge. Remember...my total time from mixing final dough to baking is typically only six or seven hours... My schedule gives you four hours at room temp and the fridge is probably worth at least two to three so it should be okay...

                                And don't worry about being super gentle with dough. If you have it adquately developed and properly proofed it can be amazingly resilient. (Though spelt doesn't help the resiliency!) Shaping loaves need not be super gentle. You need to get tension and that takes some roughness.

                                Let us know how it works!
                                Jay

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