38" build in southern IL

[kanoer54]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

gulf,

in doing my research a couple months ago i checked with the casting fabricator and totaled up the worse case weight of all of the brick and concrete components. i contacted civil engineer and structural engineer friends who confirmed my original intent of the round base, etc. soils are well drained and don't retain a lot of moisture here. i have 10" of clean limestone rock under the base which is just at our frost depth anyway.

if not successful, i may just have another leaning tower of pizza as you commented. during my original design sketches i really did think about making it lean and having all the arches and columns similar to the real leaning tower. i was thinking i could cast curved panels on the ground and them tilt them up, floor by floor but decided it may be too ambitious for my first build. if all else fails, i could plant ivy all over it to help disguise the tilt.

being a serf, i am likely to make some errors and bad judgement calls, so i do appreciate everyone's suggestions so i hopefully avoid them.

chris, thanks for your advise also.

will post some pics when the weather clears and i start the build.

jon

[Gulf]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

Jon,
Sorry for the leaning tower of pizza comment .
I think that you will be OK with your foundation. I just lean a little to the "cautious" side of that subject, not being familiar with other areas. Down here, "frost heave" is not a big problem. A lot of my early building/repairing/remodeling experiences revolved around foundations that should have been engineered for Yazoo Clay. It is very similar to frost heave but related to moisture. Yazoo clay expands during wet seasons and shrinks during extreme droughts. There are not many true skyscrapers in Mississippi. Actually, I can't think of even one . Though, I don't think that you have anything like that to deal with .

Again, I think that your base is fine. I just can't imagine why your enclosure has to be 6" thick concrete . I do understand that "personal preference" is what "makes a lot of us tick". I am very much like that. But, why does that extra weight and expense need to be there?? I'm just thinking that your "casting fabricator" could come up with something a little thinner/lighter/cheaper that would give you the look and strength that you want.

Just Sayin'

[kanoer54]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

gulf,
no apology needed for the comment. i appreciate your concern and comment regarding the leaning tower. i also appreciate a good sense of humor! seriously though, i actually spent days and days researching how to make a cylinder lean and still keep the oven floor level, but gave up after i realized the amount of calculations, special concrete forming and labor it would take. my initial design for the 'leaning tower' would have been about 10 feet tall x 4 foot diameter. quite a short squat leaning tower. would have been pretty comical though and quite a construction challenge. the actual leaning tower has a lot of columns (7 + bell tower if my memory serves me correctly) and arches which would have been WAY over my skill level with the special casting and arched details.

but back to your other concern. we have what we call 'gumbo' clay in our bottom lands around here. it is very expansive with the high clay content. our gumbo sounds like it has similar behavioral characteristics as your yazoo clay when it gets wet (swells) and drys (shrinks). it has been a big problem for some construction projects. one way we've corrected the expansive soils is with lime stabilization and for more sandy soils a process known as cement stabilization. fortunately for me, i am up out of the bottoms and have more well draining soils.

i did have extensive conversations with my manhole casting contractor about the wall thickness. i was really hoping to get something with thinner walls like you suggested. due to the IDOT (IL Dept of Transportation) government regulations and the standard ACI guidelines, reinforcing in concrete including manholes must have a minimum coverage. thus, with the reinforcing in the walls, there must be a minimum of 5-1/2" walls, so they just make their walls 6 inches thick. way overkill for what i need but that is what they manufacturer. i know i'll be missing out the fun and adventure of building the outer structure over the dome but i'll be able to finish the concrete manhole with something creative. my wife suggested ivy and giant decorative sheet metal lizards or geckos. a little bizarre but i'll keep an open mind.

keep the comments coming, because i will need all the help i can get and you guys are the experts.

jon

[Gulf]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

Jon,
I am looking forward to watching your progress.

My wife suggested ivy and giant decorative sheet metal lizards or geckos. a little bizarre but i'll keep an open mind.

Make sure that you keep some, if not all of her ideas in the decorative part of the build.; This is very, very, I say VERY important .

[kanoer54]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

gulf,
i read your reply out loud to my wife and we were rolling on the patio laughing. how true it is.....ain't nobody happy if the queen ain't happy. i am so looking forward to this build. she can hardly wait til it is done so she can cook, bake, dry fruits, etc.

it quit raining today...finallly. hope to lay the insulation and start brick work tommorrow,

already having a blast and haven't even started the brick yet!! ( can't figure out the smiley faces...but their there in spirit.)

thanks...jon

[kanoer54]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

okay, i finally got the WFO build off to a start after many delays with helping 3 families move households to new quarters, an extremely (and i mean extremely) wet month of June, mowing between rains and tending to a large garden. sorry i haven't posted pics in a timely manner but my laptop had a cold or virus or something and has now recovered.


so far things seem to be progressing at an acceptable pace considering i just laid the insulation board 2 weeks ago. i have been using medium duty bricks and and laying them up with the premixed Morco mortar which, according to their product data, is good to 2700 degrees F. i don't think the oven will get that hot, will it?

the IT is called that for a good reason. there is no way i could have come this far this fast and had bricks in line without the IT.what a great innovation!!! the HF wet saw is the second most important tool so far. and thirdly is probably the indelible colored markers.

QUESTION AND HELP NEEDED: i am starting to get a little befuddled where the dome meets up with and transitions at the inside of the inner arch. i could use some HELP on this matter. do i need to cut the dome bricks to fit the arch bricks or cut the arch brick to fit the dome? i am just starting the seventh course and will need to cut something to make it all fit. or does it really matter? am i doing the proverbial 'overthinking" this?

any suggestions, comments or suggestions is greatly appreciated.

i will try to keep updates and photos more timely now the laptop is back in service.

[deejayoh]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

Wow, Lazy Susan IT. Haven't seen too many of those used!

Looks like you are making good progress. For the arch - since you are using and axed arch design - what I have seen done is cutting back the back of the arch bricks at the same angle at which your dome bricks are going to be at that level. Use your IT to figure out where you will be and scribe a line. Cut the angle, and then run the course across the top. To account for the rise in your arch, you may need to have the highest bricks in the middle intersect with the next course of the dome. Depending on how much rise you have in your arch, you may need to do this a couple times.

I will say that your inner arch built with full bricks appears (to me at least) to be awfully deep. Your reveal looks like it will be ~6 inches outside of your oven - then you need to build your entry and outer arch beyond that. If you can, I would cut that back by 3 or more inches so that your oven is more easily accessible.

I'm sure others will have advice as well.

[kanoer54]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

deejayoh,
the lazy susan was picked up from one of the threads somewhere on the forum. cheap and it has been working great so far. once i get to the last couple top courses it will be useless. guess i will try the playdoh or fishhook idea.

thanks for the advise on the dome. i will try using the IT to mark the arch bricks, cut them and fit the dome bricks back to the arch. good thing i didn't mortar them in yet. your advise helps a lot. i was really stymied at how to do this.

well, back to marking and cutting while the weather is good.
jon

[deejayoh]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

I initially planned to use the lazy susan like that - copying Doc Sewards build. But I got stymied by the flat top myself. Now having gone through it, I'd use a plywood disk with support from a ball or jack

[stonecutter]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

I will say that your inner arch built with full bricks appears (to me at least) to be awfully deep. Your reveal looks like it will be ~6 inches outside of your oven - then you need to build your entry and outer arch beyond that.

It's not that far out, the end going into the oven is the same as a cut brick...plus it looks like there was a reveal cut into the inside edge of the opening for the door.

But I can see why it looked like that, and cutting back would have been the way to go.

[stonecutter]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

It looks like you will clear the apex of your arch with two more coarses. I would say it's 6's & 9's whether you cut into the arch or not...you may only need to bevel the middle 4-5 brick.

I don't think there is a right or wrong here, just do whatever you need to do to keep your courses as level as possible. Even if you end up with an oblong shape, you have plenty of courses to bring it back to round...if you care about hiding weird shapes then start your course at the center of the dome, opposite the oven opening.

[kanoer54]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

yesterday i cut the arch top bricks to the same slope as the dome bricks....or at least as close as i could come without throwing the next course off center (too high or too low). once i did this, it really made sense how to do it. i guess i was overthinking and making it more complex than it needed to be.

this afternoon after mowing, i will put a new blade in the wet saw and can cut more bricks for course #7!!! also will need to mortar in the arch top bricks and a couple fill ins on course #6 i left out. keeping the head joints staggered isn't as tough as i thought it would be either. this is really a lot of fun after you get the hang of it.

thanks for the advise and comments. will post more pics soon.i'm sure i will have a lot more questions.

[kanoer54]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

In the last couple weeks i have finally been able to make some progress. I have laid the brick from the tie in at the dome to the top. The plug is marked and i hope to cut and mortar it in today. That will be a milestone!. The floor and side of the oven entry are laid out with marker but not bricked up yet.

The photos show the last week or so of progress. Brick cutting has been more of a challenge on the hb wet saw as the bricks get smaller. From the base course up to course #9 I have cut the taper and angle using 4-1/2 x 4-1/2" brick. To help keep the bed joints a little tighter, on course #10 I changed to a 2/3 size brick...that being a 3-1/2 x 4-1/2 brick. These 2/3 size brick had a lot course composition, quartz or silicate or whatever these are made from and were more difficult to cut so i only used them on course #10. Courses #11, 12 and 13 I used a split brick with 1-1/2 x 1-1/4 inch dimensions. Because of their small size they were tough to cut but well worth I think to help keep the joints tight. Since no beach ball nor exersize ball were in proximity to the farm I decided to use the jack and plywood method for the top three courses.

QUESTION To provide a little more mass, I plan on adding about 1 to 1-/2 inches off castable refractory concrete with steel needles to the outside of the bricks before enclosing it. Should the curing process be started before or after the adding the 1-1/2 inch of cement, or does it make any difference. Also, does it matter if the oven entry and flue are in place before starting the curing process?

Thanks to everyone who posts as there is a lot to learn on the forum. I am so looking forward to the first full fire with food!

jon

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

Jon,

IMHO, unless you already have the material for the cement cladding and want to use it on the dome. Skip it, just insulate "well" and your oven will retain heat longer than most people want to cook (3-4 days). I waited until my flue was done before curing but I have seen both ways. Most important, take it slow and easy. It is really easy to over temp during the curing process. I used charcoal for several sessions. Easy to control heat. Don't forget to cook something when you cure. Almost there............

[kanoer54]

Re: 38" build in southern IL

Russel,
Thanks for the reply. I already have a couple bags and thought it might be useful to add a little more mass and really to make sure i don't have any pinhole leaks in the brick joints. I may use a bag or two and see what happens.

When starting the curing fires I understand the reason and need to go low and slow. I purchased a temp gun which records temps up to 1022 degrees. Since heat rises, where should the gun take the temperature, floor, low on the dome or at the top of the dome on the curing fires?

thanks...
jon