Will this design work?

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Will this design work?

Cool picture and oven at Frank Pepe's. I can see where they would need to have coals in that oven to keep the floor charged. Where in a black oven the heating moves from in to out (instant heat)... this oven heats out to in. So the time it would take to transfer that heat through the brick to the cooking chamber would take a while. Not efficient for a busy pizza place.

[stonecutter]

Re: Will this design work?

It is truly great there, and one of the best around. I use to live about 45 minutes north of the New Haven location, and whenever we go back to CT we try to go there.

[shuboyje]

Re: Will this design work?

Fair enough. I looked at the drawing again, it isn't clear if that is a FP either...I just made an assumption that it was. Anyway, it will work if the fire chamber is like a furnace and it will be an interesting project for sure.

What do you base this on? The Pepe's oven you reference is a black oven, the door on the right is simply to access the coal pile on the right hand side of the oven chamber. Coal ovens do require a grate for airflow, and the design of a classic coal oven is a bit different then a classic wood oven, but the fire is still in the chamber. The other oven referenced here has a glaring flaw, the heat is so unbalanced you cannot even bake on the hearth. To me that oven is worthless.

People have been trying to design a bottom heat only wood fired pizza oven that can produce a balanced bake at Neapolitan temperatures as long as I have been interested in pizza ovens, probably much longer. Nobody has. A white oven multiplies challenge 10 fold. That is a huge undertaking. You might as well offer to build him a space shuttle in his backyard.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Will this design work?

A white oven for Neapolitan pizza would involve a very thin refractory shell with something like gas jets hitting the floor, the sides and the top. It could be done, certainly, but not practically or efficiently.

It is hard to argue against thousands of years of empirical research and development when dealing with something as simple and basic as an oven.

[stonecutter]

Re: Will this design work?

What do you base this on?

To clarify, I never said Pepe's oven wasn't a black oven, and pointed out that the coals were in the oven camber. I did made the mistake of comparing it to the one in the link, which has a separate fire chamber. The pictures just illustrate the amount of effort it would take to heat a massive amount of masonry. All the reasons have already been mentioned.

My suggestion that a design like that could work would be contingent on getting all the masonry around the oven to temperature and maintaining that heat....which is exactly how masonry heaters function.

It takes creative engineering and masonry know-how to make an indirect fire design function and that is beyond the ability of casual oven builders. And though I agree that it probably would not reach as high of temps as direct firing, I don't think it is an impossible task. It would be more like a bake oven than a true pizza oven. Sorry for the confusion, I will re-word that post differently.

[shuboyje]

Re: Will this design work?

To clarify, I never said Pepe's oven wasn't a black oven, and pointed out that the coals were in the oven camber. I did made the mistake of comparing it to the one in the link, which has a separate fire chamber. The pictures just illustrate the amount of effort it would take to heat a massive amount of masonry. All the reasons have already been mentioned.

My suggestion that a design like that could work would be contingent on getting all the masonry around the oven to temperature and maintaining that heat....which is exactly how masonry heaters function.

It takes creative engineering and masonry know-how to make an indirect fire design function and that is beyond the ability of casual oven builders. And though I agree that it probably would not reach as high of temps as direct firing, I don't think it is an impossible task. It would be more like a bake oven than a true pizza oven. Sorry for the confusion, I will re-word that post differently.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but given that someones professional reputation is on the line and the original question is about a pizza oven not a bake oven a statement like "it will work" really needs to be substantiated.

Getting an oven like this hot is very easy, getting an oven like this hot enough to cook a balanced pizza in traditional times is not. Have you ever cooked pizza in an oven that uses radiant heat as it's only top heat source? I have designed and used such an oven, and from experience can tell you that with purely radiant heat even 1300F from an extremely efficient emitter one inch above the pizza is not enough to cook a neapolitan pizza. I highly doubt the OP's client wants an oven with a 2" tall chamber, so figuring 8" is probably as low as you could go I would venture to guess you will need the mass in the dome to be oven 2000F to cook a neapolitan pizza with purely radiant heat. At the same time you need the hearth at less then half that temperature for a balanced bake. You will never achieve that with a bottom heat source. The heat source has to enter from the top to have ANY chance, "furnace" or no "furnace".

[stonecutter]

Re: Will this design work?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but given that someones professional reputation is on the line and the original question is about a pizza oven not a bake oven a statement like "it will work" really needs to be substantiated.

Getting an oven like this hot is very easy, getting an oven like this hot enough to cook a balanced pizza in traditional times is not. Have you ever cooked pizza in an oven that uses radiant heat as it's only top heat source? I have designed and used such an oven, and from experience can tell you that with purely radiant heat even 1300F from an extremely efficient emitter one inch above the pizza is not enough to cook a neapolitan pizza. I highly doubt the OP's client wants an oven with a 2" tall chamber, so figuring 8" is probably as low as you could go I would venture to guess you will need the mass in the dome to be oven 2000F to cook a neapolitan pizza with purely radiant heat. At the same time you need the hearth at less then half that temperature for a balanced bake. You will never achieve that with a bottom heat source. The heat source has to enter from the top to have ANY chance, "furnace" or no "furnace".

I'm not very interested in debating something like this or arguing about it either, mainly because it's a difference in opinion. To your question, no, I have never built an indirect fire oven.....but I have never had a client ask for one either. The extra effort doesn't seem worth the trouble to avoid direct firing....all the reasons have been stated already. However.....

While I totally agree with the fact that the hearth floor temp would be an issue if it was a single layer over the fire chamber, (a grate seemed to be the solution in the link) I still believe an oven like this could work and could be built. And, how would a pizza not cook if the masonry for the oven is heated to 1300*? The air temperature would be more than sufficient to bake pizzas surrounded by mass the reached that level...never mind 2000*..that is higher than pizza ovens typically reach. Did you build the oven you speak of? Just curious..I would like to see it if you have pictures if you felt like showing them.

I'm sure if the op is a pro, he is not going to put his reputation on the line because he blindly follows whatever he reads on a forum.

Again, I am not suggesting that this is a practical oven design, but that it could work with the right design.

[WoodFireOvens]

Re: Will this design work?

Did you build your oven? I am right now building a adobe/clay WFO oven with the fire under the hearth, will post some pics soon, and yes you can build a oven with the fire out of the hearth and bake pizza, and bread. Each style will have differnt ways you will have to learn to maintain the temps you seek, if you can dream it! you can do it!

[shuboyje]

Re: Will this design work?

You've built one before? I'd love to see the pictures and videos of it cooking balanced Neapolitan pizzas. I've seen many people try this but nobody come close to success, what is your secret?

Did you build your oven? I am right now building a adobe/clay WFO oven with the fire under the hearth, will post some pics soon, and yes you can build a oven with the fire out of the hearth and bake pizza, and bread. Each style will have differnt ways you will have to learn to maintain the temps you seek, if you can dream it! you can do it!

[Tscarborough]

Re: Will this design work?

"Neapolitan pizza" is too easy to misinterpret. The question is, can a white oven hit and maintain 800-850 on the floor and 900 plus on the walls and ceiling. I think it is possible, but not using "normal" white oven/masonry heater design, and probably not possible using wood as the fuel.

[WoodFireOvens]

Re: Will this design work?

You've built one before? I'd love to see the pictures and videos of it cooking balanced Neapolitan pizzas. I've seen many people try this but nobody come close to success, what is your secret?

Hi shuboyje, in the build of one right now, i will keep you posted . hopeing this design of mine will be able to maintain the cooking heat to do Neapolitan pizzas, if this design does not work i will try another one

[Coastman]

Re: Will this design work?

Hello all. Just a newbie so don't put too much by this, but it is experience!
I built a small one, roughly 12 inch square internal firebox, directly beneath a pizza cooking area. The firebox just had 1" fire screed all round and 2" vermiculite insulation. The cooking area 12" base, low dome of about 8", 2" screed and lots of insulation, such that after a couple of hours of fire above 550C, external temp around 100C. No flue.

What I found. Floor temp too hot and tended to burn pizza base, top cooked in 3 minutes (with top oven door closed). Top oven became very sooty. The fire area retained enough heat (6" floor with screed and brick, plus loads of insulation below) to cook at domestic gas oven temp ranges). Needed to maintain lots of fire to cook Pizza. Not a brilliant test I know. I'm now building a Pompeii style.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Will this design work?

Whats a fire screed?

[Coastman]

Re: Will this design work?

In reply to 'what's a fire screed'.

Sorry for lack of detail. Various suppliers do a heat resist fire screed supplied in tubs or sacks. Its a dry mix, which mixes with water to a trowel-able consistency. Depending on the supplier, it can resist 1300 or 1400C. Generally needs 48 hours to air cure, followed by gentle firing.

When cured its very tough.

I've found it binds well to vertical and even overhanging vermiculite (grade 4): portland cement 7:1.

I'm basically using it because I'm no good at cutting bricks to shape for dome. And its reasonably close to castable refractory mixes.

[Archena]

Re: Will this design work?

White ovens can and do work but they aren't pizza ovens. They are for longer, slower cooking at lower temps. You can bake bread in them (some types of bread will actually do better) and you can certainly cook in them (Dutch ovens rule!).

So, how did the build go?