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Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

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  • TropicalCoasting
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    yes
    the more it compresses the less air it traps the less effective it is.

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  • v12spirit
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    Thank you for clarification,
    One thought came to me. If I go to the scrap dealer and buy the insulators that are stuffed in scrap refrigerators will that do? and if I use them for insulating the floor does their insulation efficiency diminish due to compressing the blanket under the weight of the oven?

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  • cobblerdave
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    G'day
    Diatomaceous earth has a lot of uses from worm control in animals to purifying water. It's mostly silica and the small holes to make it useful are formed from the remains of single cell animals left in sedimentary rock.
    I did a bit if research a few years ago but didnt take it any further. I certainly has some high temperature insulation properties as it was used as the insulation of the Agar slow combustion stoves. It was also used after WW11 and added to cement to gain a lighter and more insulating slab in tilt construction.
    I had a look this afternoon at a few things to jog my memory. But basically have nothing firm. It probably doesn't get used due to the fact pearlite and other more efficient products are more readily available.
    I recon it would be worth doing some research. But it comes down to what's available and affordable, in you local area.
    The Pompeii ovens a good design but it does depend on good modern manufactured insulation to work as it should.
    If worse comes to worse I suppose you could use the dry clean sand and glass bottles for the under slab . And for the dome chopped straw held together with a watery clay "slip".
    I must stress though these are not efficient and you have to put in as much effort as you would to make a properly efficiently insulated oven.
    Both these methods would not be expected to last very long at a guess.
    Hope something here helps
    Regards dave
    Last edited by cobblerdave; 02-16-2014, 02:48 AM.

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  • v12spirit
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    Originally posted by cobblerdave View Post
    G'day
    Why not try diatomaceous type products like kitty litter or the granular stuff used to clean up oil spills. It has been used in the past as insulation in agar stoves. Seems to tick the box for insulation and being non flammable. So it perhaps could be made with Portland as a binder as an insulator over the dome.
    Regards dave
    Hi cobblerdave would you clarify this more?

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  • david s
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    Originally posted by v12spirit View Post
    Thank you every body for your suggestions.
    I would ask since broken glass is just for creating air spaces, Can one just leave the space between the dome and the walls empty?
    What do you recommend regarding pumice and scoria?
    Actually, because of the conflict in Aleppo, most manufacturers either closed or moved outside and are no longer available.
    You could use just an air space but the problem is that the air in that space will move around and carry the heat with it. So preventing movement gives you a better outcome.

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  • cobblerdave
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    G'day
    Why not try diatomaceous type products like kitty litter or the granular stuff used to clean up oil spills. It has been used in the past as insulation in agar stoves. Seems to tick the box for insulation and being non flammable. So it perhaps could be made with Portland as a binder as an insulator over the dome.
    Regards dave

    Leave a comment:


  • v12spirit
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    Thank you every body for your suggestions.
    I would ask since broken glass is just for creating air spaces, Can one just leave the space between the dome and the walls empty?
    What do you recommend regarding pumice and scoria?
    Actually, because of the conflict in Aleppo, most manufacturers either closed or moved outside and are no longer available.
    Last edited by v12spirit; 02-15-2014, 09:06 PM.

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  • david s
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    Cotton and wool may burn if placed in direct contact with the floor bricks or inner dome walls. They may be ok further away from the heat. Likewise coal.

    Chalk is a possibility but it attracts water really well and you might have to mug kids in school to get it which may impede their education unless there is a local quarry.

    Salt turns to mush in really humid conditions.

    Broken glass is not bad, it is the air spaces that create the insulation. It won't attract water and won't burn. Use broken bottles so the pieces will be curved to create larger air spaces.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gulf
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    V12spirit,

    I did a search for vermiculite and perlite in Syria. I found one company, Mihran that produces Syrian mined perlite. I see that they market it for "agricultural, construction, and insulation" uses. If you contact them, they may be able to help you find a distributor nearby.

    Leave a comment:


  • TropicalCoasting
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    Originally posted by v12spirit View Post



    I started thinking: Why not use (grained) chalks for the hearth insulation and cotton for the dome?
    What temperature does cotton burn?

    Answer:

    oil cotton - 120 C
    cotton cloth - 210 C

    Leave a comment:


  • v12spirit
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    Originally posted by brickie in oz View Post
    Hi Brickie,
    I viewed the thermal conductivity list. I've just started a new thread regarding my project and have been looking for the insulation blankets and boards and could not find them in my area. I was surprised with the list showing some available materials with so good insulation:

    Cotton 0.04: can I use normal cotton to insulate?
    Coal 0.2: can I use the normal coal used for barbecues?
    Chalk 0.09: can I use the normal chalks used at schools to write on the blackboards?
    Sheep's wool 0.039: Can I use plain sheeps wool?

    I started thinking: Why not use (grained) chalks for the hearth insulation and cotton for the dome?

    Moreover. Local WFO builders recommended the use of glass or meal salt!! Is that reasonable?
    Thank you
    v12spirit

    Leave a comment:


  • Lburou
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    You could always make a hearth like GianniFocaccia did (pictured below). Then, just fill the depression with scoria -or combination of sand and scoria- then, put your firebricks on top of the that. While not an optimal insulation layer, it would provide some trapped air for insulation and eliminate the cement issues you are struggling with. I'm still optimistic that you will find some form of vermiculite


    Last edited by Lburou; 11-02-2011, 06:35 PM.

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  • Lburou
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    All sand is not equal as an insulator

    If you must resort to 'sand', choose a coarse, highly washed sand, a sand without the smaller particles that would tend to fill the air spaces between the granules. The coarse sand will allow more air space for trapped air like texassourdough pointed out.
    Last edited by Lburou; 11-02-2011, 06:02 AM.

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  • brickie in oz
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    Here is a list of different things.
    Thermal Conductivity of some common Materials and Gases

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  • Cheesesteak
    replied
    Re: Floor insulation options because of a lack of materials

    I would say to consider using sand. I've read some say that sand is a poor insulator - but that's simply not so - so long as the sand stays dry.

    Some things to consider:
    Sand has an approximate thermal conductivity (K value) of around 0.17 (depending on type of sand), which means it is a very poor conductor and a reasonable insulator.

    Wet sand, however, is a very good conductor, with a K value of 1.25, which means it's (wet sand) not a good insulator.

    Volcanic Rock (tuff) has a K value of anywhere from 0.5 - 2.5 - which means it's not as good of an insulator as sand.

    Compare that to fiber insulating boards which usually have a K value of around 0.04 . . . .

    That should give you some comparison.

    NOTE: K-value is a measure of heat conductivity of a particular material. Specifically, it is the measure of the amount of heat, in BTUs per hour, that will be transmitted through one square foot of material that is one inch thick to cause a temperature change of one degree Fahrenheit from one side of the material to the other. The lower the K-value for a material, the better it insulates. If the K-value of the material is known, the R-value per inch can be determined by dividing 1 by the K-value (R-value per inch = 1/K value). The LOWER a K-Value, the better its performance as an insulator.

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