Interesting Dough Experiment

[Mitchamus]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Hi Rossco,
great experiment!

I must admit I've never had much luck with sourdough.

bread or otherwise!

[heliman]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Thanks Jay... Arrived here a few hours ago and i've already been shopping for flour. Obsession ... What obsession??

[texassourdough]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Good luck, Rossco!

Bake On!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Ha - it can happen so easily can't it...

I have packed a pizza stone in my luggage and will be making some pizzas for my dad when I get there as there are no decent pizzas to be had. Have also made a copy of the Reinhart ciabatta recipe to take along so I will get some practice.

I won't be taking any flour along as airport officials may mistake it for some other similar looking white stuff. They have got some really good flour there so it will be interesting to see how it all turns out...

I'm taking the iPhone along so I will be able to post on the adventure.

Just running out the door now to get some travellers cheques....

[splatgirl]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

I've done that...totally messed up a travel date. in my case I didn't realize it until after the fact.

just put it in the fridge. Might need to refresh it a couple of times to get it going nice and strong again, but it'll be fine.

cheers

[heliman]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Sorry ... things have got a bit hectic here. I leave for Africa today and thought that I was only flying out tomorrow. Lucky I checked the ticket!!

Didn't manage to test the dough out fully as planned but now I want to put the starter to sleep for 10 days while I am away. Any suggestions on that one??

PS - apologies if I ask "stupid" questions, and thanks for your patience in responding. So much to learn and often this can be confusing.

[splatgirl]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

YAY! Photos?

Re yellow color...my guess is that this is a function of the type of flour used. Semolina flour comes immediately to mind. Those that I have seen and worked with are always more the color of corn flour than wheat flour.
I have not experienced any appreciable change in color with starters or doughs with age other than noticing that if my starter hasn't been fed for a while and has a layer of hooch on the top, stirring that in sometimes makes it very slightly grey. I have always assumed this is just due to oxidation.

[texassourdough]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Hi Rossco/Splatg!

You tend to ask questions that no one can answer without a lot more information, Rossco, such as "What is the difference between the starter you developed from the dough and the one you started with pineapple juice?" At this point, without a detailed microbiological study, not one can answer that with any confidence.

Your responses were good, Splatgirl which is why I didn't comment - though being traveling and therefore out of sequence contributed as well.

Let's get back to basics Rossco. There are many things going on in dough - most notably enzymes breaking down starch to sugar, yeast converting sugar to alcohol, and bacteria breaking down sugar and metabolic products from the yeast and making a range of chemicals and acids.

IF your dough based starter was based on commercial yeast, there will be a diversity of bacteria in the flour which will create all sorts of products that may or may not taste good and may or may not be particularly good for you. And, as it is the acid from bacteria that keep a sourdough "pure" (i.e. rid of bad bacteria) the lower acid dough will be vulnerable to contamination.

Over time the lactobaccili will tend to take over and the acidity of the starter will rise. IF it was based on commercial yeast the yeast will lose vitality and the starter will lose "power" (i.e. the ability to leaven the bread/make it rise). At that point some other wild yeast will tend to take over - and given you should have wild yeast spores from your sourdough in relatively high numbers you will probably end up with the same starter - but the past will be different.

Recent research indicates the wild yeast populations in well-cared for sourdoughs tend to be relatively stable and able to resist entry by other yeasts. However, the bacteria populations tend to go become infiltrated by local bacteria. I.e. a San Francisco sourdough starter with near 100% Lactobaccilis sanfranciscus will experience the development of a complex bacterial population over time when NOT in San Francisco. (I am well aware of the debates over this and do not wish to start another debate and I don't say it can't remain distinct but rather that it has a tendency to lose distinction and shift to a new profile - especially if it is not well maintained).

WRT yellow, sourdough starters do tend to lose their brilliant white as they age. I haven't done the experiment but I suspect flour mixed with water and held for a week will change color too as the starches break down.

Hope this is useful!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Just another thing ...

The original dough had a distinctly yellow colour to it - is this possibly a sourdough characteristic?

Tonight's batch is rather white - but I am wondering if it will be yellow in the morning after fermentation...

[heliman]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Sorry about the delay in updating this one.. BUT an amazing breakthrough...

I did taste the mix and it was sour. It developd well over the next few days and today I took the plunge and actually used it.

Now the interesting thing is that it is very similar to the original dough that I bought from the local pizzeria. The smell and texture are the same and I am sure with an overnight fermentation, this dough will be superb.

There is no "marshmallowing" that I experienced with the IDY method, but there is still some action on the go as I can see small bubbles forming. I am just going to divide it up (after 1 hr on the bench) and will now wait to see how it turns out in the morning.

If this works well I will only use this method in the future. I will have to generate a fair bit of the starter though when I have a large number of people around, but I am sure that I can manage the process OK....

More later....

[heliman]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Ok thanks ... I'll give it a go this evening and leave it proofing over night and bake some pizza tomorrow.

When I get home this evening I will sample some of the brew. If you don't hear from me again you will know that there was a problem. But on the positive side, I will bequeath you my WFO and favourite peel and have it shipped over to you.

[splatgirl]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Yes, use it!

With a very lively starter, I would expect proof times to be in the neighborhood of what you are used to with yeast, but like yeast, this is also related to temperature and recipe. The thing about sourdoughs is they are going to take however long they are going to take, and it is only with experience that one can predict this. The state of the starter is another variable. If I bake using starter that was fed same-day, my proof time will be different than if I bake with a starter that was last fed two or three days ago.
It sounds like it's doing what it should do. An experiment worth continuing at the very least. Do give it a taste, for no other reason than it would be nice to have a reference for a couple of weeks down the road. It won't hurt you, I promise.

[heliman]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Great feedback - thanks! I am beginning to understand the process now at last. It is quite complex, but interesting at the same time.

I am eager to give the starter a try ASAP - is this evening too early to use it?

How long does the yeast starter need to be in contact with the main mix in order to get its full effect??

BTW My starter has a faint sour smell to it at this stage but is doubling and more within a couple of hours. Is this a good sign?

[splatgirl]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

excerpted from the website listed below, I think this is a fairly good explanation of things:

The natural yeasts in a sourdough starter are strains of a yeast family whose scientific name is Sacchraromyces exiges. They are of the same family of yeast as commercial bakers' yeast, whose scientific name is Saccharomyces cerrivasae. The two have what might be called a distant family relationship but differ in one important way. Commercial bakers yeast cannot survive in a very acidic environment whereas natural yeast is very happy to live in such an environment. This is important because the lactobacilli in a sourdough culture produce a lot of lactic and acetic acids (which are what gives sourdough bread its flavor). The acids create an environment too acidic for commercial bakers' yeast, so only natural yeast can live with them.

What is Sourdough?

[splatgirl]

Re: Interesting Dough Experiment

Does it taste sour?

I am led to believe based on what I've just read that even commercial yeast starters may continue on indefinitely with feedings, the difference being that it will lack sour flavor because it's not lactobacillus. But, I also know that any culture will naturally colonize and be taken over with whatever is local to you, so I guess I don't really know what will happen going forward with this one.

I would definitely use it and continue to feed it, esp. if it tastes sour.

The value of a mature culture over a young one is that the organisms have had a chance to naturally select so that the strongest, most vigorous strain is what continues to grow, whereas presumably there is still a bit of natural selection going on in a young culture. If this logic is applied to the above statements, it seems like one could expect even a commercial yeast "starter" to eventually be taken over by sourdough beasties....?
FW that's worth, I started using my grown-from-scratch culture as soon as it appeared to be growing and lively and I don't see much if any difference in it now vs. then.

So if this is in fact a sourdough, I would imagine it has been in use for a while and is fairly old. HOWEVER, moving it so far from it's original circumstances means all bets are off...like I said before, it will become whatever it wants to be in your location. From what I understand, this would be true of relocating ANY sourdough culture.

I certainly isn't difficult to start another of your own. I plunked a raisin in flour/water slurry to get mine going and it worked beautifully.

As far as using it, I just substitute a blob of starter for some of the flour and water the recipe calls for and proceed. So if I use 100g. of starter, I subtract 50g. each of flour and water from what the recipe says, and omit the yeast, of course. Expect your proof times to be different, however... this is the learning curve.

Reinhardt's sourdough pizza dough recipe calls for 8oz. of starter to 32oz. of flour but IIRC his starter formula is more of a stiff dough type...easy enough to convert or sub, however.