Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Interesting Brickie, I was wondering about that earlier. I assume it has to do with expansion and contraction rates of the metal bar vs the refractory cement causing cracks. I wonder if I wrapped the metal bar in duct tape and poured the refractory cement around it? The duct tape would be sure to burn away leaving a thin gap allowing the metal bar a little room to expand into.

What do you think Brickie?

[brickie in oz]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

I have a metal bar in my oven and its wrapped in ceramic fibre to help keep the heat down..

The duct tape will burn away and still leave the bar exposed to the heat.

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

The melting point of metal bar must be far above anything these stoves can generate, yes? I guess I don't understand...

[Gulf]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

The melting point of metal bar must be far above anything these stoves can generate, yes? I guess I don't understand...

It is not the melting point that is the concern, it is the expansion rate while heating. Under normal (ambient seasonal temperature) conditions, soft steel and concrete will expand at similar rates. When being heated by fire, the expansion rate is too far apart.

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

It is not the melting point that is the concern, it is the expansion rate while heating. Under normal (ambient seasonal temperature) conditions, soft steel and concrete will expand at similar rates. When being heated by fire, the expansion rate is too far apart.

Thanks Gulf. Yes I thought that might be the reason. Like the root of a tree growing under a wall when the root grows the wall cracks. Or running hot water on a stuck lid. The lid expands faster than the glass bottle and loosens up a bit. When the bar in an oven expands it cracks the concrete. So I figured that if I wrap the metal bar in duct tape which burns away it will allow a bit of growing room, heat expansion room for the bar. Think it will be enough?

[david s]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

I think part of the problem is that steel, being a much better conductor, gets hotter faster than the refractory that surrounds it and hence expands more. Reinforcing for refractory generally calls for stainless needles which are so small that they can dissipate their energy and heat to the surrounding refractory more easily than a thick bar. I am amazed at how much difference the steel supporting bars under my Hebel supporting slab are compared to the Hebel slab on my mobile oven. They just suck the heat big time. I shall try and measure the difference with my IR gun next time I use it.
If your bar expands and gets a bit wider that may not be too much of a problem, but it also expands and gets longer. That may be a real problem. Suggest you can create a small gap at the ends to accommodate this. With kilns that have steel rods and threaded nuts to do the bracing, the problem is that the rods often get longer from the heat than the expanding bricks and need adjustment during firing.

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

david s, that's a great thought I missed. So I'll duct tape and extend the bars with paper and duct tape. Good one!

Just ordered duct tape from Amazon, ought to be here in 70-90 days. First it goes to Oregon where my father in law boxes it up and sends it through LBC shipping by sea. Very inexpensive carrier, a box a bit less than 2' x 2' costs $70. That's how I got my pool pump and filter here. Actually took an LBC box into a pool store and got the biggest filter they could fit in the box. No weight limit. I actually considered shipping refractory brick from Oregon but figured I'd end up with a box full of brick dust...

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

The #s are now correct, thank you Chip!


The floor will be well insulated. I need to come up with the wall thickness in order to be able to lay out the 8 posts which will hold the whole thing up.



As you can see the posts are inside the circumference of the floor, so that needs to be planned for as well. I'll approximate the distance inside the edge of the floor as a rough percentage and set the posts that way. The question is, what is the full circumference of the floor?

Starting from inside out I've tentatively settled on 54" for the inside dimension of the floor within the oven as being an even 4 1/2 feet. I think the brick is 4"x2=8" so that's 62". Then there's 5"x2=10" of refractory cement, yes? 72". Then a full 12"x2=24" of perlite, why not? Everyone is telling me "Insulate!" so I'm listening. 96" then 5"x2=10" of top coat and that's 106", minus 4 1/2" explained below = 101 1/2".

Since I want the floor to be unseen It should be 2" less than the top coat as the top coat hangs over enveloping the floor. 6'8". Then there's a 1/4" piece of plywood that will surround the floor and create an expansion contraction gap between the floor and the topcoat. 6' 7 3/4".

Walls...

4" brick
5" refractory
12" perlite/cement 8-1
5" topcoat cement/sand/red clay/lime mix 1/3/1/1
---------
26" walls

Floor circumference...

54" inside dome
26" wall
26" wall
---------
106"

Minus
2" wall overlap
2" "
1/4" plywood expansion joint
1/4" "
--------
4 1/2"

106"
-4 1/2" (2x2 1/4")
--------
101 1/2" floor circumference
8' 5 1/2" "

Sound reasonable? I'd really like to know what you guys think of my conclusions. Like to hear ideas on this too please.

If I get rid of the 2 scalloped layers and the blue skirt then the posts could come to the edge of the floor as the floor would be the horizontal yellow part at the base of the onion and rise into the onion itself and the edge of the floor start the dome to turn outwards. Forget the 2 scalloped layers and the blue skirt, these are all fluff. That would bring the posts and the dome into equal heights and create symmetry, in my opinion.

The entrance, 63% of the dome height, will be in the shape of one of the scallops.

[mrchipster]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Reading your numbers I am unclear about if you are considering the walls refractory and insulation correctly. You state 4" for brick both that would only be the one side of the oven. because the oven has a left and right wall.

Look at it as follows

Outer skin - outer structural layer - insulation - brick wall - inside oven - brick wall - insulation - outer structural layer - outer skin

As you can see the outer skin, outer structural layer, and brick wall need to be accounted for twice when calculating the diameter of the oven structure.

This does not take into account for the flue arch and if you are going to have a chimney how it is incorporated into the flue arch and it's dimensions.

A drawing of how you are planing for the oven might be helpful.

I believe in order to accomplish your goal the oven may need to be offset inside the outer structure to allow the entrance to be incorporated into the external skin. Or move the oven up as in the drawong so as to allow for the entrance and flue.

Chip

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Thanks Chip, yes the #s are not right, I'll take another look in the AM. Any advice on the chimney would be much appreciated.

Regarding the flue arch I was considering not having the supporting bricks on the sides but instead carrying the upper part of the arch by firing long bricks which will take their support from the dome. The flue would come out of the arch and bend back into the dome's 12" insulation layer to reemerge at the top of the onion. That arch is going to be a trick.

[mrchipster]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Thanks Chip, yes the #s are not right, I'll take another look in the AM. Any advice on the chimney would be much appreciated.

Regarding the flue arch I was considering not having the supporting bricks on the sides but instead carrying the upper part of the arch by firing long bricks which will take their support from the dome. The flue would come out of the arch and bend back into the dome's 12" insulation layer to reemerge at the top of the onion. That arch is going to be a trick.

There is a post somewhere here on a squirrel tail flue that lays on top of the oven and then exits out the center at the top.

"http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac06b.htm"

Here is an example of something similar.

"http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/37/81-inch-first-build-first-post-11354-4.html"

Chip

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Well I didn't get to the #s today but I have time. Right now I'm having a couple glasses of Aussie red wine, "Hardy's" Cab, really decent stuff I'm thoroughly enjoying. This is the 2nd 2 day weekend we've had in many months. Nobody perplexed at what I'm building looking for instructions on how to go about it. I'll tell you Chip, there was about a year there that was such an intense mental exercise that I'm not nearly over it. It was like my head was going to split from the million details within. It didn't and the project is pretty much done, just simple stuff yet but its like my brain is still tied in a knot. I don't much like the feeling.

Chip, the first link I found interesting excepting that I'm going for a much more minimalist look as far as the chimney imposing on the dome. Such a beautiful dome and its lost in the arch and support, not mine. Did they even put insulation? That will be key to my planned method of hiding the chimney details, supporting the brick of the arch and retaining the dome as an architectural feature.

I'm not a big fan of right angles, particularly outdoors where this oven will be, though under an octagonal roof. Right angles do not occur in nature, I find them to be a bane. Some are unavoidable like where a wall meets a ceiling, but others are easy and sensible to not have and don't need to occur. So in my oven I'm not going to give up the natural contours. I'm not going to build a round dome and spend my days looking at a box concealing its natural beauty.

Anyway I'm half in the bag with this good Aussie wine. Cheers!

Abby and my wife, Dolores...

Shown behind them is the bridge across the pool and above that the third floor bridge which links my study (left) to the bar in the other building. (right) A good view also of the spiral from inside the pool to the 3rd floor bridge which is concrete and metal bar. Each step is a cantilevered tie beam. The railing is the local blue pvc which we bent over a fire. First it has to be filled with sand then slowly worked in the heat...



Third floor bridge leading from the bar to the study...



Christmas...

The three black pipes sticking out are plastic pipes protecting metal bar. There will someday (maybe) be a water slide from up there utilizing those metal bars. The pipe for it was poured as part of the spiral.



The base of the tree is Coco Island where there will be a water feature driven by the pool pump. Pipes are all laid but its still on the list.



The study where I'm now sitting. It has curtains now. Out the far hanging door you can see the conveyor head of the limestone quarry. I was excited when I read lime was involved in building a WFO, but its processed lime, not the stuff they dig up there. Its fun to watch the barges and ships come and get filled up. Tugboats push em around, kind of interesting.

Eh, too many pics for a post at the site, one more post coming up.

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

I actually was lucky and found German hanging slider hardware for the big sliding glass doors, worked out really well. Dolores can open and close them, its easy.

The French doors lead to the balcony which extends out over the ocean. Its like being on a boat.



That's really it, just one more pic. Here's Abby scoring a balloon.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

...Nice...

[Lancer]

Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Thanks Brickie!

Here's the project during the build.





The bridge...



I haven't the first clue why I'm putting these pics here. Maybe because there's none yet of the WFO build. Tomorrow I'm introducing Sho to the concepts involved. We're going to sit here half the day looking at pics and videos describing what a WFO is and then share my plans. Then with the #s we came up with here we'll build the 8 posts and a standard concrete 'table' on which everything else will get built.



I want to thank all of you guys who have helped me so much. I now realize that this project couldn't happen without the expertise shared here.