Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

[NCMan]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Like what, heavy commercial/ports/airports?

http://www.icpi.org/sites/default/files/port__industrial_pavement_design_with_concrete_pavers.pdf

Pavers, especially in the context of this forum, are an excellent choice, as they are relatively cheap, easy to lay, easy to FIX if you screw it up, and can be reused when priorities change.

None of those are true of PIP concrete.

For pavements, mind you, not foundations.

Well...as usual, You are right, know it all, and we should all just listen to you and never, ever interject any other opinions. Thank you for gracing us mere mortals w/your presence. Much appreciated.

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Love to hear more on this topic. Keep it up.
jon

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f39/pavers-vs-concrete-slabs-21742.html#post186343

[kanoer54]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Glad to hear others opinions. With over 33 years in commercial and residential construction I have found both PIP and pavers have their place. Both are good when used properly and in the correct cost/freeze and maintenance construction restraints.
Love to hear more on this topic. Keep it up.
jon

[Tscarborough]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Like what, heavy commercial/ports/airports?

http://www.icpi.org/sites/default/files/port__industrial_pavement_design_with_concrete_pavers.pdf

Pavers, especially in the context of this forum, are an excellent choice, as they are relatively cheap, easy to lay, easy to FIX if you screw it up, and can be reused when priorities change.

None of those are true of PIP concrete.

For pavements, mind you, not foundations.

[NCMan]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

I like pavers, they look better and all the cracks are pre-engineered. Plus, if you are like me, your plan changes over time. Some of my pavers have been laid in 3 different places in my yard as the design evolved, and I am planning on moving another 100 sqft or so this summer (a walkway I need to move over about 2' because the landscaping has grown up). Try that with PIP concrete!

And I could think of way more examples where one could say "try that w/pavers!!" But, I have better things to do.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

I like pavers, they look better and all the cracks are pre-engineered. Plus, if you are like me, your plan changes over time. Some of my pavers have been laid in 3 different places in my yard as the design evolved, and I am planning on moving another 100 sqft or so this summer (a walkway I need to move over about 2' because the landscaping has grown up). Try that with PIP concrete!

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Yup...and we won't ever agree on this one.

[NCMan]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

No, I was stating my opinions w/out regard to location. I have lived and worked in cold climates. I wouldn't change my opinion regardless. And I have lots and lots of personal experiences w/concrete and seen firsthand what pavers look like after a few years. I wouldn't use them even if someone offered to install them free. Really. Sorry, I've just seen and done way too much to ever have anyone convince me otherwise. And I've had many a conversation w/owners who chose to have pavers installed and lived to regret their decisions and in some cases, were tearing them up and pouring concrete. Too each their own....right?

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

And, that was my own opinion based on my personal experiences in the business and what I've observed. I might feel different if I saw meaningful sqft of concrete slab that held up long term and retained its beauty compared to pavers (not concrete pavers) or stone.

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree w/that statement. I have poured many a slab in the north and there is no way I would do pavers. Too many future problems. But, everyone has their opinions and that's what makes the world go 'round, I suppose. I wish I had a dollar for every job where people had pavers of some sort and we tore it all out to pour a proper concrete slab and never had a single problem. I do know that lots of pavers are installed incorrectly, but there is no way, in my opinion, that any paver install would be superior to a properly done concrete slab. I just couldn't sit back and read that w/out chiming in.

No problem, I know things hold up different in the south, but I'm back in the north after 5 in SC and there is nobody that will convince me ( I don't think you're trying) concrete slabs are better than pavers in freeze thaw zone....no way...ever. Why?

First, any failure of pavers is going to be because of the base material, like a concrete slab. A well draining base and sub grade won't retain water.. Most guys putting pavers down use fines in the base material or sand as a leveler. Even with a good base, the weak tensile strength of a slab (even with reinforcement) makes it susceptible to cracking.

Second, up here, you are going to have cracking in the first year on a slab...no exceptions. Those cracks may be in planed areas, but within 5 years cracking outside those areas will develop. Since pavers are laid as individual units, they take up movement waaaaaaay better that any reinforced concrete slab. Up here, Slabs that aren't cracked outside of the control joints are the exception not the rule. You must be the exception because every stonemason, landscaper or the like That I personally know will not choose a concrete slab over pavers. And, if a paver patio is heaved and won't lay back to level at least you still have usable material....unlike the demo job for a slab.

Third, No modern concrete in earth improves aestheticly with age. You can't say the same thing about clay or stone.

This is all said based on the assumption we are comparing a dry laid patio vs a concrete patio.

[NCMan]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Also, smaller units are vastly superior to a concrete slab long term in a freeze thaw zone.

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree w/that statement. I have poured many a slab in the north and there is no way I would do pavers. Too many future problems. But, everyone has their opinions and that's what makes the world go 'round, I suppose. I wish I had a dollar for every job where people had pavers of some sort and we tore it all out to pour a proper concrete slab and never had a single problem. I do know that lots of pavers are installed incorrectly, but there is no way, in my opinion, that any paver install would be superior to a properly done concrete slab. I just couldn't sit back and read that w/out chiming in.

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Also, smaller units are vastly superior to a concrete slab long term in a freeze thaw zone. No contest in the beauty dept too....unless you are talking about concrete pavers. My preference is stone pavers or flags first, Clay SWB pavers next, followed by concrete pavers.

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Any Thoughts?

Yes.

Excavate all the organic soil and material down to subsoil. Pitch the sub grade to daylight the drain water or install perf pipe curtain drains. Use only 1/4" or 3/8 crushed, washed stone for your setting medium.....not sand,crusher run or gravel. Fines hold water, soaked base heaves in the winter. Screed out the crushed stone and set stone, clay or concrete pavers. If you use travertine pavers, stay away from gold from turkey and anything from Mexico....though the gold trav from turkey isn't too bad, but occasionally you'll get a pallet of soft stuff.

[hodgey1]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

What's your plan for the patio?

Glad you stopped by Stone. I had my heart set on a stamped concrete patio until I got pricing, Nearly $16.00 sq' and our plan is around 600 sq'. So, plan B was pavers but after our second winter in a row of -20*F days on end, alot of paver patios I've seen have heaved bad. I know concrete will heave also but seems to settle after frost retreats better at saw cuts. So plan C is exposed aggerate finish concrete at $9.00 sq'. Any Thoughts?

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

What's your plan for the patio?