Hello from Pennsylvania

[McLane]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

George,

The margin question has to do with time, not cost of ingredients, unless you're adding things like olives or walnuts. True artisan bread baked in a wood fired oven takes an enormous amount of time: wood gatering and cutting, firing the oven, making and forming the dough, retarding, baking. Unfortunately, the word "artisan" has been co-opted to mean simply the shapes, not the method. You have to sell a lot of bread to make ends meet, and I charge $7 for a kilo sourdough boule. Pizza is another matter. What does Pizza Pizza (yeech) sell a large pizza smothered with so so ingredients for? Add up the time and ingredients costs involved. You probably find that a $12 pizza like that costs about $1.50 to make. People are used to $2 loaves of Wonder Bread AND $12 junk pizzas, but they're not used to real bread.

Jim

The Greater Erie area is a tough market. You could have the best pizza or bread that hands could make, even if you priced it at 15% below market value. If the guy across the street sells garbage goods for 50 cents less, they'll go there. We have the unique, and I'd say very fortunate, situation of being the only town where a Hooters restaurant closed due to lack of business. The fact that they had nearly naked women serving food could not overcome the fact that their customer service stunk.

[McLane]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

Yes, this will be a fun post to follow.....

...."When People share a meal together - they talk"

....."this is a healthy & viable board"

seems like these two comments are related....we all like to eat, share e-meals together and chat...via internet!

How many loaves to feed 1000 people? 100? Does that need a larger oven or would CJ's size work? Note that Jim is near Toronto and is not afraid of cooking in the colder weather

But Pizza's.... there is none left when we make 12 for 8 people! Feeding 1000 could be a challenge. Maybe that's time to call in the portable FB oven on a trailer!

Good luck, maybe we can have a FB rendevoux sometime in PA...construction or cooking conference!

XJ

"

The "1000" is an estimate for the future that looks at the growth that we have experienced in the last 10 years. We don't put any pressure on drawing attendance, but we feel that if we continue to do what we've been "led" to do, then the numbers will continue to grow. It will be some time before we are dealing with numbers like that. Right now our numbers for a dinner type of meal (we serve a full hot breakfast at the 2 morning services on our main campus, and bread is rarely served at that time) are about 300-400 max at our main campus, with two off site locations that average around 100 or so at a time. Up to this point, we have been baking Italian, French and "Potato, chive & cheddar torpedoes" in a convection oven with little problem. We have a Hobart commercial mixer with a bowl that must be close to 5 gal in size and a home refrigerator-sized Crescor proofer that has allowed us to prepare a good deal of bread at one time. I made 40 loaves of the torpedoes 2 weeks ago, using 1# of risen dough per loaf.

As far as a future get together/conference/"bread bash" in Edinboro; sure, we live for stuff like that!

[CanuckJim]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

XJ,

Dave and I have been trading emails about this and other stuff. I suspect he would need a 5' x 7' at least. Mine is a 4' x 3', and I wish it was larger. Related to your other post, I'll be taking some height measurements shortly, noodle some, and get back to you. Interesting topic that I don't recall coming up before.

Jim

[Xabia Jim]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

Yes, this will be a fun post to follow.....

...."When People share a meal together - they talk"

....."this is a healthy & viable board"

seems like these two comments are related....we all like to eat, share e-meals together and chat...via internet!

How many loaves to feed 1000 people? 100? Does that need a larger oven or would CJ's size work? Note that Jim is near Toronto and is not afraid of cooking in the colder weather

But Pizza's.... there is none left when we make 12 for 8 people! Feeding 1000 could be a challenge. Maybe that's time to call in the portable FB oven on a trailer!

Good luck, maybe we can have a FB rendevoux sometime in PA...construction or cooking conference!

XJ





"

[CanuckJim]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

George,

The margin question has to do with time, not cost of ingredients, unless you're adding things like olives or walnuts. True artisan bread baked in a wood fired oven takes an enormous amount of time: wood gatering and cutting, firing the oven, making and forming the dough, retarding, baking. Unfortunately, the word "artisan" has been co-opted to mean simply the shapes, not the method. You have to sell a lot of bread to make ends meet, and I charge $7 for a kilo sourdough boule. Pizza is another matter. What does Pizza Pizza (yeech) sell a large pizza smothered with so so ingredients for? Add up the time and ingredients costs involved. You probably find that a $12 pizza like that costs about $1.50 to make. People are used to $2 loaves of Wonder Bread AND $12 junk pizzas, but they're not used to real bread.

Jim

[gjbingham]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

Jim,
Is that really true about the low margin on bread? Maybe in Canada? The stores and bakeries around here charge $3.50 a loaf for artisan baked bread. Same price at the farmer's markets. I rarely buy it because its so expensive, and I can make my own at home (once again, though rarely do).
George

[brokencookie]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

I'm going to start a VPN pizzeria when I grow up.
James

Don't grow up James. It sucks the fun out of everything !

[james]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

From a strictly commercial point of view, the margin on bread is low, the margin on pizza is high.

Go figure.

Jim

I'm going to start a VPN pizzeria when I grow up.
James

[brokencookie]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

Dave,
A. I'm an eccentric loony, B. My oven is a giant, eccentric, BBQ. Moral: he's weird but harmless.
Jim

Ha,Ha, Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Same experience I have had. But they probably added

C. Persistent Pain in the Rear (with crazy technical questions)

[CanuckJim]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

Dave,

Just a point or two to stress. You WILL have to educate fire officials about what a WFO actually is, the fact that it does not radiate heat, the fact that the chimney does not smoke, the fact that very few, if any, sparks are created outside (providing proper wood is burned), the fact that the entire operation is meant to keep heat in, not bleed it into the building, the fact that it is neither a woodstove nor a fireplace. My fire chief was very sceptical at first, but then he came to the conclusions, A. I'm an eccentric loony, B. My oven is a giant, eccentric, BBQ. Moral: he's weird but harmless.

It might be a lot easier for you, as suggested, to build the oven in a lean to attached to an exterior wall, with only the oven mouth projecting into the kitchen area. This might solve a lot of regulatory problems, but I'm not all that certain in your location.

From a strictly commercial point of view, the margin on bread is low, the margin on pizza is high.

Go figure.

Jim

[McLane]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

Maybe you can put your oven on the outside of the building with just the opening exposed to the kitchen area.

That idea came up very early in the discussion, but with the winter temps that we have around here (last Sunday the high was 5 degrees F), the thought is that it would take far too long to heat the unit up to a temp that would bake bread.

[brokencookie]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

It's probably a Halon system. We have them at the refinery when I work. It's a nice system. It is capable of putting out types A,B, and C fires (virturally all varieties), leaves no residue, and will not destroy electical equipment like a water or chemical powder system.
Just some more random thoughts. A ventilation system is basically an air exchange. My lab has a requirement to exchange all of the air in the lab 6 times an hour. This is a bit extreme for most applications. However, the more air exchanges you have, the harder it is to maintain temperatures. FB Forum creed -- You can never have enough insulation.
During your planing, check to the direction of flow of your ventilation. Having your blower push cold air directly into your ovens is counter productive and makes them fuel hogs. We have found that we can maintain the needed exchanges without blowing air directly onto heating sources. Some of ours run @ 1100 Degrees C ( just a little datum for the metric guys). When the air blows on them we can only get up to about 1025 degrees C. So we adjust our vents to blow parallel across the front of the unit and not directly at it.
Maybe you can put your oven on the outside of the building with just the opening exposed to the kitchen area.

You can't always think of everything, but you're doing a great job. I can't think of anything you appear to a missed.

Keep up the good work

Bruce

[james]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

This is all very exciting. It will be great to watch your progress and help in any way we can.

There are two basic issues you will have to address with local authorities -- safety/fire and sanitation. FB is in the final stages of UL approval for our ovens, and I have learned a lot about these topics -- including how time consuming it can be. :-)

I agree with the idea of talking to your local authorities, including building, fire and sanitation/health early. You can tackle the issues, but you need to start early.

James

[McLane]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

Yes, you need a certified ventilation system as well as a fire suppression system. The type of system has an official name, I think it's called a "halo" system, but I'm not sure.

[brokencookie]

Re: Hello from Pennsylvania

Just reread your last post. You are required to have a fire suppresion system ?? Is that for the kitchen itself or due to the public seating areas.

In my area I get a lot of hassles about septic systems, plumbing, and refrigeration equpiment. The inspectors have not yet commented about fire suppression.

If you need fire suppression in the kitchen area they might get sticky about locating it near the WFO.

Bruce