Sour Dough Starter...

[heliman]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

UPDATE
--------

There was some brown water so I gave it another feed and it puffed up again and got rather excited. Does this mean it is still active??

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

I would wait a bit. Don't wait more than 24 hours, but...let's see what it wants to do...
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Probably have about 1 1/4 cups at the moment.

Does it need another feed at this stage or should I wait for the hooch to signal me?

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Wierd!

The rage may be all you get. Young starters are sometimes erratic. It will let you know by forming hooch. You shouldn't need to stir it now except when you feed.

How much starter do you have? You can throw away as much as you want but I would keep a half cup or so...

Keep me informed!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Excellent info - thanks Jay ...

Update on this: The Beast sleeps!!!

After adding the 1 cup flour and 2/3 water it raged angrily for a few hours than fells asleep. Checked it this morning and there are a few bubbles but it's not puffed up.

When do I add the next lot of flour/water? Should I discard some of the brew at this stage??

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Rossco!

I lost a long response! ARGGH!

It will be thick but not as thick as pizza dough! Thick is not a problem once it is robust but it is better to keep it to 100% hydration until it is robust. Starter is often shipped as a 50% range dough packed in flour. Thick is not a big deal per se.

A question is how much starter you added the cup of flour and 2/3 cup of water to. IF it was a cup or so, the expansion is high but okay. IF it was a quarter cup then it was about a 10X expansion and it was way overfed which will mean it will probably take a day and a half or two days before it can peak and be ready to be fed. It won't hurt much but its better to only double or triple the starter (by weight) at this stage.

Given you have scales, I suggest you use them.

Once the starter is active and robust again (it will expand and unless your measurements were way off should be wet, stringy, and foamy), switch to repeatable, controlled process for expansion.

I would suggest following my pattern. When I start a new jar of starter I put 100 grams of ripe starter in a clean quart jar and add 55 grams of flour and 55 grams of water to the starter. Stir for 10 seconds. Put the lid on loosely and leave it out for an hour or so before putting it in the fridge.

I would suggest following that pattern but leaving it out on the counter and feeding twice a day. At each feeding discard 100 grams of ripe starter and add 50 or 55 grams each of flour and water and the amounts should match. Within a couple of days the starter should reliably be peaking within 8 to 10 hours.

Why do I suggest 55 grams as the feeding amount? I move jars about once a month and when I switch to the new jar I lose some starter in the old jar. Adding 55 of each results in a slow growth of the starter so I can get a full 100 grams to start my bred and another full 100 for the next jar. If all you do is replace exactly what you take out, at the end you will take 100 grams for bread and only get 90 for to feed. Not a big deal for you can feed it a bit extra, but...I opt to make the starter slowly grow. You may not want to do that while you are feeding twice daily, in which case you would have 200 grams of starter in the jar after the first feeding. Thereafter you would simply remove 100 grams and add 50 grams of flour and 50 of water to get back to 200 grams and steady state.

Hope that helps!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

OK - I added 1 cup bread flour and 2/3 cup of water.

It is very thick now and has me worried that it may be too thick. I had to stir for a good few minutes to get the brew to mix. I'm wondering if I add the same ratio flour/water tomorrow if it won't be a bit too thick.

Also, if I add 2 x cups of flour per day plus water am I not going to get a masive amount of the starter? Will need a new fridge for the brew alone!!!

Rossco

UPDATE: This beast is going like a rocket. Have had to upgrade the container once and it is fast outgrowing that too. Revenge of the Yeasts!!!

[texassourdough]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Rossco!

Here is the basic process. Note: this assumes bread flour.I think I did the conversions in my head about right but you want the water to total about 65% of the weight of the flour (you will use higher hydration later but...this is just a first pass.) If you use AP you will need less water by about 5%

Evening before...

Take 100 grams of starter (or if you want to measure 1/4 cup). Add 200 grams of flour and 200 grams of water (about 1 1/2 cups of flour and 1 cup of water). And feed your remaining starter as normal! Stir it up, cover it with saran or something and let it sit on the counter overnight.

Next morning it should be frothy and lively and ideally just starting to be concave (depressed) in the center of the bowl (i.e. just peaking). You will now want to add about 1250 grams of flour and 750 of water (about nine cups of flour and 3 1/4 cups of water). (I do it by hand but I will assume you should use a mixer the first time). And 45 grams of salt!

Stir it all up as best you can and mix with a dough hook for 3 minutes at low speed - until it is sort of mixed. Let it sit for 5 minutes and mix for 2 more minutes at low speed. Move it to an oiled bowl and let it rest about 20 minutes. Do a stretch and fold (look for that on the Fresh Loaf site if you don't know what it is.) Wait ten minutes and do it again. Leave it alone for an hour or so. Divide it into four loaves and proof in bannetons or bowls, or make baguettes or... This makes about 6 pounds of dough so you can make 4 1 1/2 pound boules or batards or way too many baguettes.

Let them rise about 3=4 hours but the real clue is they should grow by 50 to 70 percent. Don't let them double - they will be overproofed! You want to bake them early.

Put a stone in the oven and a pie pan or cast iron skillet. Heat the oven to 450 for 45 minutes to an hour. Add ice about 5 minutes before baking. Move as many loaves as you can bake to a peel/peels with semolina or brown rice flour or parchment and slash the loaves. Put in the oven and add about 1 cup of boiling water to the pan. (Be careful!)

Bake about 35 minutes and check the internal temp. Shoot for 203 to 207. Repeat with the remaining loaves.

You can try to cut downt he recipe but it gets awkward to make only 1 or 2 loaves. It is easier to make 6 pounds. The dough should have some substance. Don't make it too wet the first time!

Let me know how it works. (and check my conversions - the grams are right!
Jay

Note: this is intended to be a bit forgiving and make it easy to make good bread. I.e. to be safe! Not to be "the best"!

[heliman]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

More excellent info - thanks Jay...

OK will go for the suggested mix then and see how it goes. Will feed before and after work which should cover the 2 x daily requirement.

I have three digital scales at the moment for different applications. I bought one of these great machines recently: SaveOnScales.com - MyWeigh KD-8000 Professional Table-Top, Multi-Purpose Digital Scale with Baker's Function. It is brilliant and has a Baker's percentage feature which is really good as well. The smaller scale does the .1 gram and I use it for yeast/salt etc.

While on the topic of measuring devices, I bought one of these babies last week: Pro High Temperature Non-Contact Thermometer - Jaycar Electronics
Probably a bit of overkill as it goes from -58 - 1832?F. Got a good deal on it and am very happy with the performance.

So, looks like some action ahead this weekend on the baking front. Would be good to make a quick loaf so any recipes would be welcomed.

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

I would go to the 1 cup flour & 2/3 cup water. It will give you a starter that is sort of like the old white library paste of the past. It will have roughly equal weights of water and flour and that will ultimately make your bread making much easier IMO.(And I am an engineer and math is NOT a problem but having the starter be balanced makes everything else trivial).


I would suggest keeping it out and feeding it twice a day (assuming it gets rambunctiously foamy/frothy) for a few days. At that point it will really be ready to use. (and you may be there now!). If it isn't peaking (by that I mean expanding (foaming up) and beginning to collapse within say ten hours it is still a bit puny to use. Your goal, when making bread, is to do the second expansion at the point where the volume is peaking and the yeast is at maximum activity. I have not used superwet starters but it is my understanding they usually don't expand so telling when they are peaking can be tricky. Another reason to use a drier hydration.

Sounds like you will be ready to do bread theis weekend perhaps! I am going to suggest you do it INDOORS. Until you know your yeast it is way too hard to anticipate when the bread will be ready.

If you don't have a scale, you really should get one if possible. A scale that does 11 pounds with 5 gram accuracy is really helpful. I recently got a second that does about a pound and a half with .1 gram accuracy for doing additives. Really nice!

I will send you a bread recipe in a separate reply so it is contained.
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Thanks Jay ...

So - If I now go 1 cup flour and 2/3 cup water for tonights feed... will that be ok?

The brew is being left on the counter top (not fridge) at this point - is that still OK? When do I need to put it in the fridge??

BTW I am happy to wait a while before using the starter - there is no rush.

I appreciate the feedback Jay- amazing to think that I thought that this whole process had to be done each time one did some baking!! There is probably a "sourdough starter 101" but I must have missed it...

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

The wet starter works fine, it's just not as sour as if it were lower hydration. (Wetter favors yeast, drier favors bacteria so you get more acid and sourer).

It sounds like you now have a fully functional sourdough starter. All you need to feed it is water and flour. Normal proportions are doubling to tripling the volume with each feed (more means you don't have to feed quite so often!) It is NOT however as likely to be as good as it will get. Your first batches are likely to be slow rising and that will improve as the dominant yeast takes over and kicks out lesser bugs. Flavor will probably improve for months (mine changed slowly for close to a year!).

The liquid you see is hooch indicating it wants to be fed more flour!

There is nothing wrong with having a liquid starter but 166% is on the high side IMO. All you have to do to change the hydration is feed it a few times at the new hydration and it will quickly become "close enough" to the target. Ditto, don't worry about having white, whole wheat, or rye starters. If you take your regular starter - whatever it is based on - and expand it 4X in the preferment stage and then 4X to the final dough, the original flour/rye will only be about 5% of the final dough weight and 5% is no big deal (I add 5% whole wheat to my white breads, 10% rye is nice in lots of white breads, and 5% white flour in pure rye or whole wheat is no big deal either so long as you aren't selling it and claiming it is 100% rye or whole wheat.

You are doing fine but you should probably go to feeding twice a day if you are getting brown liquid!

Bravo!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hello Jay - thanks for that detail..

As mentioned, I am following this recipe: Wild Yeast Sourdough Starter | The Fresh Loaf

Are you saying that it will not work? If so, how can I fix what I have already made. I am on day 5 - as per the recipe that is "repeat of Day 4" which wants me to add:

1/4 cup plain flour
1/4 cup bottled water

Don't really want to throw away what I have made if it can be saved.

Any suggestions?

Rossco

PS: I have just checked the brew - it is bubbling nicely and had some brown, watery substance underneath the foam. Gave it a stir and it seems to be looking OK.

[texassourdough]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Rossco!

Couple of comments. You are making a really high hydration starter. There are several standards, stiff starter (around 70 percent hydration), balanced (100 percent), and wet starters. The way you are feeding you will have a 166% starter. You will need to know the hydration and take the water in the starter into account when you "design" your recipe. A 166% starter is so wet it won't typically show a lot of bubbles or "grow" like a dryer starter.

I do 100%. About 1 cup of flour and 2/3 cup of water (ratio) - using a scale is a BIG help. The equal amounts of flour and water make calculations easier.

Wetter starters tend to be less acidic. Dryer starters more so. If you want SF style sour bread you will want a drier starter.

IF kept at room temp the starter should be fed twice a day. IF you bake every day, you should divide the starter and feed the part you will keep and leave it out for about eight hours, then into the fridge until the next day's mixing. (I do a first expansion for the dough that sits out overnight on the counter and bake first thing in the morning. At 75 degrees I use a 4X expansion. I.e. I take 100 grams of starter and add 200 grams of flour and 200 grams of water and mix and that sits out overnight. At 68 degrees I drop to a 3X expansion and add only 150 grams of flour and 150 of water in recognition the yeast won't reproduce as fast.) If you bake only once a week the starter should sit out for about an hour and can then be put in the fridge until you want it - up to about two weeks.

At some point you will start getting hooch (pale yellow/brown liquid on top of the starter. That is alcohol and an indication you should feed the starter (whether you make bread or not). It is not critical to feed immediately, but... the health of your starter will be in decline at that point. Don't go more than two to three weeks without feeding or the starter will get weak and will risk dying or will require one or more feedings to simply get it healthy enough to use again. (Doing this you want to keep it out on the counter and feed it every eight hours or so.)

Hang in there! You are getting close!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Update
=====

Stirred the mix down this evening and added:

1/4 cup of the home brew
1/4 cup plain flour
1/4 cup bottled water

Will add the same tomorrow.

Do I have to keep adding the water/flour for the next week or so? Do I understand this correctly - this starter brew will keep indefinitely if I add water/flour and I can just add a quantity of the mix to a sourdough recipe instead of yeast when baking?

TIA

Rossco