Croissants

[texassourdough]

Re: Croissants

Hi John!

These emails brought some big grins! Yes, we breadmakers suffer enormously from growth in our gravitational attraction! But...great bread and gravity enhancement seem to go together!

Bake On!
Jay

PS: I think you are on target on your assessment re butter but....??? I have NEVER done croissants so????

[Aegis]

Re: Croissants

Hi Aegis!

Just suffer through the learning stages. Yes, they aren't "right" but as Faith suggests, they taste good and eat great. And with proper experimentation you will both get there and be fatter!

Bake on!
Jay

Hi Jay,
The only suffering I am doing is gaining weight! LOL
Thanks for the encouragement, I have read and learned many things from both you and Faith in the world of bread!
Again
Thanks
John

[Aegis]

Re: Croissants

Yup... Looks like my first attempts. Even the bad ones eat great!

First off I would bake a bit longer to a darker brown crust. I think you are correct that your butter got to soft. If your having to work hard to roll and it's taking some time don't be afraid to put it back in the fridge. Butter temp is so critical.

As you now know they are not that difficult so practice, practice, practice and you will get the croissant of your dreams.

Nice job
Faith

Hi Faith,
You are right on they eat great. lol My wife wanted them lighter, but I convinced her they were supposed to be darker. I think I failed to keep the butter cold enough to retain its layer in the dough and it just wound up combining with the dough. They were still buttery but I lost the layering and flaking that I was trying to achieve.
Yard work and other chores are taking over this weekend but I will make another attempt next weekend.
Thanks for the great input!
John

[texassourdough]

Re: Croissants

Hi Aegis!

Just suffer through the learning stages. Yes, they aren't "right" but as Faith suggests, they taste good and eat great. And with proper experimentation you will both get there and be fatter!

Bake on!
Jay

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Croissants

Yup... Looks like my first attempts. Even the bad ones eat great!

First off I would bake a bit longer to a darker brown crust. I think you are correct that your butter got to soft. If your having to work hard to roll and it's taking some time don't be afraid to put it back in the fridge. Butter temp is so critical.

As you now know they are not that difficult so practice, practice, practice and you will get the croissant of your dreams.

Nice job
Faith

[Aegis]

Re: Croissants

John, Normally the fridge is fine but if it takes a long time to roll or your kitchen is hot and you notice the dough really softening up I do the freezer. The trick is to keep the dough and the butter at the same softness. Don't let your butter get real soft or you won't get the lamination. Keep it cool...but not cold

Hi Faith, I tried your recipe and it came out tasting better than I thought I could do, but from the pics you can see the lamination's were not there at all.
I think the butter got too soft... any help would be appreciated.
I did make some square with chocolate inside and my wife is hoarding those from everyone! LOL
Thanks
John

[SCChris]

Re: Croissants

I have some real reservations about the Allen Scott oven design. I like the barrel vault oven but his method of support I question. The whole oven is supported on a free hanging rebar system... just don't trust that over time.

If you look at commercial WFO's and white ovens the ceiling of the oven is quite low. I know that would help the steaming process.

It does look like the vermicrete goes down on a wood frame and rebar and concrete are layered over this insulation layer followed by the brick floor. I could be wrong on the structure supporting the vermicrete. Does this look like what was done to you?

I've seen a AS build with steel I beams supporting the sidewalls and these 2 beams were then tied to each other, bolted together, by large diameter all thread. Here is the Link. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/297...l-wfo-progress I should have remembered that you, Faith, had been there. I don't ever recall seeing an AS oven with rigid CalSil like insulation under the deck. I think I'd entertain putting 3" or more of rigid insulation under the floor and on the sides and put 3" or more ceramic blanket on the roof. The thrust of the side walls must be especially significant over time with the thermal expansion and contraction, I imagine a wedge pushing harder and harder until things finally pop! Unless of course, the engineering is accepting of these stresses. Anyway, it's a puzzle..

:-)

Chris

PS found it!! The Steel I beam AS build is above..

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Croissants

Nice looking loaves Aegis, I agree with you even with spraying and other moisture inducing methods I don't know how much of a help it is. After watching the commercial deck oven flood the compartment with steam...that is my goal.

Chris...Between my blowout loaves and your post about making a loader you have introduced a design change to my big oven that I'm planning. The door will be much wider to accept a loader and fill the oven in one shot. I will be looking for you to work out mechanics and happy to copy and reproduce one when you get it working.

I have some real reservations about the Allen Scott oven design. I like the barrel vault oven but his method of support I question. The whole oven is supported on a free hanging rebar system... just don't trust that over time.

If you look at commercial WFO's and white ovens the ceiling of the oven is quite low. I know that would help the steaming process.

[SCChris]

Re: Croissants

An active steamer would really facilitate the early bake, and again I'll be envious. Faith, Please give us a photo tour of your workshop and all of the toys and tools..

Speaking of new tools I've been following Pip's new 4' by 6, oven on TFL at PiPs's blog | The Fresh Loaf

I'm not clear of the specifics of the insulation under the floor, but vermicrete and blanket insulation are clearly used. This is a very nice oven. I note that the ration of air space to deck area in this Allan Scott style oven seems significantly less than in our Pompeii style ovens. Of course if this is so, then less steam would be needed. It really shows the contrast between a specific use commercial bread oven and a more general use Pompeii design. I need to be clear that I love my Pompeii but if I were going to do bread in commercial volume the rectangular floor is a real plus, a full width door for loading and unloading would also be a huge plus for getting loaves in an out.

I’m still formulating a loader for my 42" oven. I may have something in 2 weeks or so.

Chris

[Aegis]

Re: Croissants

Yes, doing full loads. The problem is by the time you start the load to the time you close the door the first loaves are going into a dry oven and it takes a bit of time for the steam from the loaves to start. The first loaves in has the crust setting before the oven spring. Pre-mopping and spraying don't do much on a 42" oven. So this steam injection can be working even while loading the oven. It will also allow for smaller loads.

If you have proofer envy then I won't tell you about my other toys. Just got a dough hook today for the 20 Quart. I should post some pictures of my kitchen.

Hi Faith,
I have a 42" oven and have tried using a pan with bolts in it as a pre-steamer, I am a little bread challenged and not sure if this is helping or not. Right before the load I spray the oven and then load and re-spray. Then have a wet towel hung on the inside of the door and close it up. The towel does two things, steam & seals the door better. Again, I am not sure if this is helping much as I have yet to get a good "ear" on my bread. Not sure if they are over proofed or under steamed? rosemary olive breads in the pics.
btw: definitely need pics of your toys! LOL

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Croissants

Yes, doing full loads. The problem is by the time you start the load to the time you close the door the first loaves are going into a dry oven and it takes a bit of time for the steam from the loaves to start. The first loaves in has the crust setting before the oven spring. Pre-mopping and spraying don't do much on a 42" oven. So this steam injection can be working even while loading the oven. It will also allow for smaller loads.

If you have proofer envy then I won't tell you about my other toys. Just got a dough hook today for the 20 Quart. I should post some pictures of my kitchen.

[SCChris]

Re: Croissants

Considering the proofer you mention at TFL, I'm betting you're doing full loads each time.. I look forward to seeing the steamer.

Chris

PS I have proofer envy!!

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Croissants

SCChris, No, in the WFO I just put them in with no steam. I am working on a steam injection system for the WFO. My last bake was a real eye opener for me. I baked the same bread with different junk on the loaf. Plain went in the oven first, seeded went in second and cheese went in last. The first loaves had some blowouts the seeded had less and the cheese had none. So loading order greatly affected the outcome and this I can fix with steam injection. When I get it up and running I will share pictures and process.

John, Normally the fridge is fine but if it takes a long time to roll or your kitchen is hot and you notice the dough really softening up I do the freezer. The trick is to keep the dough and the butter at the same softness. Don't let your butter get real soft or you won't get the lamination. Keep it cool...but not cold

[Aegis]

Re: Croissants

Sure Aegis, This is from Suas's Advanced Bread and Pastry.

Just dragging this out of my spread sheet so I hope it's okay. He called for Osmotolerant Instant Yeast and I don't have that so I converted it to Active dry.

Can't get the #'s separated from the spread sheet. You will see ingredient then amount in grams as ###.### then the bakers percentage.

Croissant Dough / no preferments
Bread and pastry (Suas Page # 331

Number of 2 pound dough 1




Bread Flour 499.660 100.0%
Water 191.359 38.3%
Milk 113.398 22.7%
Sugar 63.786 12.8%
Salt 10.631 2.1%
Active Dry Yeast 11.516 2.3%
Malt 2.500 0.5%
Butter 21.262 4.3%
Total Yield 914.113

Butter for roll-in 226.796 24.8%

2.02 pounds



Mixing
Add all the ingredients to the mixing bowl.
Mix on first speed for 4 to 5 minutes and about 5 minutes on second speed
Desired dough temperature: 72?F to 77?F

Bulk Fermentation
45 minutes to 1 hour

Retard
Retard for 8 to 15 hours at 40?F

Lamination
Three single folds.
Rest 30 minutes between folds.

Dividing and Shaping
Assorted shapes

Final Fermentation
1-1/2 to 2 hours at 78?F (65% Relative Humidity)

Baking
Egg wash
With steam (2 seconds) 385?F
13 to 15 Minutes

THANKS Faith! I'll try this next weekend, I am still tied up with yard work and other mundane chores this weekend. Faith, did you put the dough in the fridge or freezer between laminations?
I know this will be challenging for sure!
Again thanks
John

[SCChris]

Re: Croissants

Faith,
With steam (2 seconds)?
I know this came from your WFO, is the steam 2 seconds of spray from a plant sprayer? How do "you" do your steam in the WFO?

Thanks

Chris