Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

[NCMan]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Also, smaller units are vastly superior to a concrete slab long term in a freeze thaw zone.

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree w/that statement. I have poured many a slab in the north and there is no way I would do pavers. Too many future problems. But, everyone has their opinions and that's what makes the world go 'round, I suppose. I wish I had a dollar for every job where people had pavers of some sort and we tore it all out to pour a proper concrete slab and never had a single problem. I do know that lots of pavers are installed incorrectly, but there is no way, in my opinion, that any paver install would be superior to a properly done concrete slab. I just couldn't sit back and read that w/out chiming in.

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree w/that statement. I have poured many a slab in the north and there is no way I would do pavers. Too many future problems. But, everyone has their opinions and that's what makes the world go 'round, I suppose. I wish I had a dollar for every job where people had pavers of some sort and we tore it all out to pour a proper concrete slab and never had a single problem. I do know that lots of pavers are installed incorrectly, but there is no way, in my opinion, that any paver install would be superior to a properly done concrete slab. I just couldn't sit back and read that w/out chiming in.

No problem, I know things hold up different in the south, but I'm back in the north after 5 in SC and there is nobody that will convince me ( I don't think you're trying) concrete slabs are better than pavers in freeze thaw zone....no way...ever. Why?

First, any failure of pavers is going to be because of the base material, like a concrete slab. A well draining base and sub grade won't retain water.. Most guys putting pavers down use fines in the base material or sand as a leveler. Even with a good base, the weak tensile strength of a slab (even with reinforcement) makes it susceptible to cracking.

Second, up here, you are going to have cracking in the first year on a slab...no exceptions. Those cracks may be in planed areas, but within 5 years cracking outside those areas will develop. Since pavers are laid as individual units, they take up movement waaaaaaay better that any reinforced concrete slab. Up here, Slabs that aren't cracked outside of the control joints are the exception not the rule. You must be the exception because every stonemason, landscaper or the like That I personally know will not choose a concrete slab over pavers. And, if a paver patio is heaved and won't lay back to level at least you still have usable material....unlike the demo job for a slab.

Third, No modern concrete in earth improves aestheticly with age. You can't say the same thing about clay or stone.

This is all said based on the assumption we are comparing a dry laid patio vs a concrete patio.

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

And, that was my own opinion based on my personal experiences in the business and what I've observed. I might feel different if I saw meaningful sqft of concrete slab that held up long term and retained its beauty compared to pavers (not concrete pavers) or stone.

[NCMan]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

No, I was stating my opinions w/out regard to location. I have lived and worked in cold climates. I wouldn't change my opinion regardless. And I have lots and lots of personal experiences w/concrete and seen firsthand what pavers look like after a few years. I wouldn't use them even if someone offered to install them free. Really. Sorry, I've just seen and done way too much to ever have anyone convince me otherwise. And I've had many a conversation w/owners who chose to have pavers installed and lived to regret their decisions and in some cases, were tearing them up and pouring concrete. Too each their own....right?

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Yup...and we won't ever agree on this one.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

I like pavers, they look better and all the cracks are pre-engineered. Plus, if you are like me, your plan changes over time. Some of my pavers have been laid in 3 different places in my yard as the design evolved, and I am planning on moving another 100 sqft or so this summer (a walkway I need to move over about 2' because the landscaping has grown up). Try that with PIP concrete!

[NCMan]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

I like pavers, they look better and all the cracks are pre-engineered. Plus, if you are like me, your plan changes over time. Some of my pavers have been laid in 3 different places in my yard as the design evolved, and I am planning on moving another 100 sqft or so this summer (a walkway I need to move over about 2' because the landscaping has grown up). Try that with PIP concrete!

And I could think of way more examples where one could say "try that w/pavers!!" But, I have better things to do.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Like what, heavy commercial/ports/airports?

http://www.icpi.org/sites/default/fi...ete_pavers.pdf

Pavers, especially in the context of this forum, are an excellent choice, as they are relatively cheap, easy to lay, easy to FIX if you screw it up, and can be reused when priorities change.

None of those are true of PIP concrete.

For pavements, mind you, not foundations.

[kanoer54]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Glad to hear others opinions. With over 33 years in commercial and residential construction I have found both PIP and pavers have their place. Both are good when used properly and in the correct cost/freeze and maintenance construction restraints.
Love to hear more on this topic. Keep it up.
jon

[stonecutter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Love to hear more on this topic. Keep it up.
jon

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f39/...tml#post186343

[NCMan]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Like what, heavy commercial/ports/airports?

http://www.icpi.org/sites/default/fi...ete_pavers.pdf

Pavers, especially in the context of this forum, are an excellent choice, as they are relatively cheap, easy to lay, easy to FIX if you screw it up, and can be reused when priorities change.

None of those are true of PIP concrete.

For pavements, mind you, not foundations.

Well...as usual, You are right, know it all, and we should all just listen to you and never, ever interject any other opinions. Thank you for gracing us mere mortals w/your presence. Much appreciated.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

I don't know it all, but I know what I know. Your welcome.

[sharptailhunter]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

hodgey,

I just read all of your build thread, loved it! The exterior design of your oven is similar to what I have planned for my build. Thank you for showing me some helpful tips.

As for the patio, I have done paver, flagstone, and concrete. All of them have their strengths and weaknesses. I think what truly matters is that you decide on what you want and then find a contractor who is willing to give you references or take you personally to jobs he's done in the past. Proper prep work is crucial for any final top product. If you plan to do the labor yourself, I think it'd still be most helpful if you can locate some fellows who have done the method you decide on; concrete, paver, stone, etc, and ask them to let you see their final result and seek their guidance.

One thing us northernly people have to consider is ease of snow removal. A patio isn't as critical as a driveway for example, but big or small, it still erks when you snag the blade of the shovel or plow on the edge of a paver. I think that may be an advantage of a smooth (relatively) concrete pad over the others.

Personally, if I could afford it, I'd have a heated paver pad, driveway, and/or sidewalk, because I think it looks pretty and I'd never have to shovel it. Based on what you have shown us, you obviously have great skill and attention to detail so I'm certain that whatever road (pun sorta intended) you choose, it'll be done right and look great!

[hodgey1]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

hodgey,

I just read all of your build thread, loved it! The exterior design of your oven is similar to what I have planned for my build. Thank you for showing me some helpful tips.

As for the patio, I have done paver, flagstone, and concrete. All of them have their strengths and weaknesses. I think what truly matters is that you decide on what you want and then find a contractor who is willing to give you references or take you personally to jobs he's done in the past. Proper prep work is crucial for any final top product. If you plan to do the labor yourself, I think it'd still be most helpful if you can locate some fellows who have done the method you decide on; concrete, paver, stone, etc, and ask them to let you see their final result and seek their guidance.

One thing us northernly people have to consider is ease of snow removal. A patio isn't as critical as a driveway for example, but big or small, it still erks when you snag the blade of the shovel or plow on the edge of a paver. I think that may be an advantage of a smooth (relatively) concrete pad over the others.

Personally, if I could afford it, I'd have a heated paver pad, driveway, and/or sidewalk, because I think it looks pretty and I'd never have to shovel it. Based on what you have shown us, you obviously have great skill and attention to detail so I'm certain that whatever road (pun sorta intended) you choose, it'll be done right and look great!

SharpT

This was one of the most difficult projects I ever tackled in my 48 years on the planet. Hearing/reading comments like yours about my project make it even more rewarding. I had never had my hands on a trowel until this project and really had to push myself to start it. This forum maybe solely responsible for pushing me over the edge and getting me to start, let alone all the help I got along the way was priceless. One member "Boylanta" was beyond helpful, he lived about 90 mins away and had us over for WFO dinner prior to my build and answered any/all questions I had along the way.

I have a very good concrete guy who has done my 400' driveway, detached garage floor and basement of my house. All where separate projects over the last 13 years. Their skill and workmanship has been excellent so I trust that they will do a good job on the patio. I think after much consideration I'm headed in the concrete direction. The freeze cycles we've had here the last two winter have been extreme and shown a lot of people the real damage frost up to 4'-5' deep can cause. I think either concrete or pavers will work fine if both are installed properly with the right drainage.

I must admit after two complete summers taken up with my WFO project, daughters wedding and caring for elderly parents I maybe leaning the concrete way so I can enjoy my summer cooking in my WFO on my new patio, entertaining and not fill it with another large project. Oh that sounded lazy!

[hodgey1]

Re: Starting 42" NW Pensylvania

Patio is underway! Weather has stopped progress as it's going to rain the next 4 days straight, but can't control the weather. Hopefully we will be done before the upcoming holiday weekend, we'll see.