Wrong dimensions - Help!!

[Tenorio74]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

So Tenorio back to your drawing just to make sure I've got it. Sorry, let me ask again: It looks like your carved slot for new floor anchoring is the anchor point to prevent the floor from sagging down and breaking. But wouldn't the metal ring snuggled against the inside surface of the wall provide exactly that support? It would have to be 2 inches high, sitting on the original slab for the airspace. This is redundant, sorry, just want to make sure. Think like a wagon wheel's metal rim sitting in there. Wouldn't *that* support rim suffice for edge support of the fiberboard, instead of having to notch into the brick wall in a circle? This is the remaining part I don't understand - it would provide vertical support, but against the (not notched) brick walls, there would be nowhere the new floor could slide or move to, to break off or fall in.

Hi Peter, no problem with your question (this is theoretical work for me anyway, as I haven't done a mod like that myself).

Yes, the metal ring would provide the same support. Then again I was talking about a new slab. As you don't plan to pour one to end at the same height, you must however have solid, insulating, non-removable forms, as fiber board is NOT a load bearing structure. Just a outer ring won't do it. You need a sort of metal sheet floor I guess, something to support the weight of bricks and logs.

Your outer ring will have to go in in pieces though, as well as your forms....

[peterthewolf]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Lburou-

That would be great! Thanks, and I'll call you this evening when I get home. I'd like to learn how to do this. Meanwhile I did already send Brickie the pictures before getting your message; he's been pretty quick (thanks Brickie) and they may be up by the time I get home but I'd love to learn how to do this.

I have three shots. Looking a little upward from just outside the door showing door frame, then flue hole in it's arch, then just passing the flue to see the dome. In one of them, my hand is in it so y'all get perspective.

One thing I wonder is about erosion. How can we be assured that silt won't creep in and someday fill up the airspace? - ok I think I have it - use a little mortar as "caulk" on the bottom of the support donut where it sits on the slab.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Petes Pics.

1. Looking in door frame. Door 15", flue in arch 18", dome top past flue arch peaks at 30"


2. Same photo with my hand. Flue hole is a hand's length up inside door, and there is that much distance again for smoke to travel out across arch before it reaches the hole and goes up. Remember, closing the flue from above can eliminate flow up this hole effectively removing it. But then this arch is 18", not 15". I don't see much difference in that (if) the flue is closed, but what about if open - what do you all think about this part?


3. Flue hole (slighly dark) in foreground, the deeper part of it's arch just in past the flue, and beyond, the peak of the dome.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Looking at pic 1 Id say your fire wood is still green as there way is too much tar and creosote on the door.

[peterthewolf]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Brickie-
No, the wood was well seasoned. Also behaved fine while on the oven floor waiting to throw onto the fire. It's all about the mystery problem between the floor and dome. Just not an effective burn in there. You got to see another indicator (looks like too fuel rich) that we can't hit high heat inside very well, only temporarily when at all with half a forest going through it. There (is) burn; we've run a ton of wood through it and it eats up the wood just fine, but it generates a very thick smoke layer.

Guys, how about those thoughts on using the donut *instead* of having to chip into the wall. Can't we be ok with that donut support right *to* the wall???

[peterthewolf]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Hey everyone-

The mason has responded favorably on doing whatever we ask to fix the oven. He will be here early this Tuesday morning. If any of you have or might take a couple of example photos that show the low pitch of your own oven, this would be very helpful to us. Best is to just send them to my email which is:

pwolf1@wolfskills.com

Again, to all of you, it's been an extraordinary investment of time and energy you have put in to help us with this. We are so appreciative.

A final note, it just occurred to us, why not simply knock off the portion in question of the dome (like opening the top of a soft boiled egg), and both have room to get a hammer in there to blast the floor more effectively, and also simply rebuild it over a raised platform with styrofoam carved new dome interior mold. Re-vermiculite after the brick work, then re-rock the outside. It is all gone from front view and we get to keep the beauty. Hey, what do you think?

[peterthewolf]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Thanks everyone for your hard working input. That "favorable" phone call was the last we ever heard from the mason. He now has a letter acknowledging his abandonment of the job and we've got it from here.

Here's what we are doing:
1. Dome demo, rebuild with 24 inch interior height for 63%.
2. Then floor demo (and the room to do it). Keeping door but making it seal with metal work sill.
3. Fireplace correction in situ.
What we are leaving: -Beautiful face and arch - Chimneys -Basic structure of fireplace.

Dome demo: Your suggestions got me researching. No calcium aluminate or lime were added to the mortar. Double what he actually included in clay could have helped only marginally for high heat. Goodbye dome and all guessing about moisture wicking in it's base.

Floor demo: Down to the slab. Penetrating sealer into the slab. 3.5 inch airspace above it, then a 40 inch disc of .5 inch steel plate. It is suggested to cut it into 4 and use same intended supports ("x" shape) under the middle seams - then hi-temp caulk them shut for moisture. On that not mortar, but sand and clay bed, then firebrick. The local woodstove folks I've known say that woodstoves are lined with firebrick specifically to reduce heat to the metal surface that (would have) warped it with direct fire. Back to original floor height.

Keep door but fix it. Use sheet metal to drop interior tunnel chimney 3.5 inches to match existing 15 inch door. Have the sheet of metal up against tunnel arch to protect cement/cement dropping out to keep that part of structure with it's non high heart cement.

We figure to leave the chimney and beautiful face, and the fireplace. But we will put a plate of stainless on the back reflecting wall of the fireplace with an air space behind it, about .5 inch. Those wall bricks are against earth, but the metal will take care of that and become a heat reflector. The fireplace floor is a bridge over air, but it will take the most concentrated heat and was built with that same non-fire cement between the bricks. So we may redo just the floor surface in solid brick, or add a protecting 1/2 brick layer on top of it. We may also do the sides with an additional layer of 1/2 bricks to protect so we don't have to tear that out.

So there we are, in progress and hopefully just in time for improving weather. As we are moving through demo into rebuild, please let me know what you think.

Finally, you guys who said 'hate to say it, give it up, do it again'...thanks for banging collective heads on the wall until we woke up. The cement conclusion was the final straw. We did not ask for a temporary oven. Now we are looking forward to a great finished product that works.

--Uh, I bet you'll hear from me soon asking for advice (much more pleasant) for you... Thanks all. Now, onward!

[dmun]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Yes! I gave up on advising you early on, when I concluded that there were no good options on your existing dome. I think you've made the right decision.

Penetrating sealer into the slab.

A pond liner may be a better/more permanent option. While you have it apart, you may as well really seal the thing.

we will put a plate of stainless on the back reflecting wall of the fireplace

They make handsome cast iron firebacks for just this application.

Good luck with the rebuild. Keep us posted.

[peterthewolf]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Thanks dmun. Yes, we ran out of options.

It was only an hour ago when the metal fabricator was here to discuss the job, that we noticed a seep line indicating how water does in fact seep through the base layer and upward. Just noticed it, after all of this production and questions on whether the base and walls are actually wet without taking them apart to find out. There at floor level in the cement and rock work on the exterior of the oven structure where we can see both sides and front, is a moisture line where absorbed water disburses up and evaporates, which confirms what we were guessing about there being a perpetual heat sink. Off we go to play terminator...

[OscarA]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

I have nothing of value to add only good luck and keep us informed of your progress. I would love to see how this all ends.

[Nic The Landscaper]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

How much money do you have left? I'll take a quick vacation down I-5 and build you a real wood fired oven

Seriously though, things like this make me sick. There is nothing I hate more than shady people doing less than marginal work and absolutely hosing people for money

With the moisture situation, if raising the base above soil is not an option, look into a product called multicoat to install between the concrete and vermiculite layers. Pond Liner is not a good option for wood fired ovens, as it does not perform well in warm situations and it shrinks at a rate of 3% per year (thats not published anywhere, just something that we've learned the hard way over time and gotten a few producers to "off the record" admit to.)

Anyway sounds like your on the right track with the tear down, and if it were in the budget I would come down and help.

[lwood]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Pond Liner?????? EPDM rubber originally formulated as rocket motor case insulation. Has great erosion rates at 3200C especially near the nozzle opening. Don't know about in a WFO however.

[stonylake]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

EPDM is the most widely used roofing product available today... and was adapted from the pond liner business in the late 1970's. Think of the temperature on a black roof in 110 degree weather. EPDM does shrink, but 3% per year is pretty extreme. As far as flammability is concerned, go to your local roofing distributor and get a 4" square sample and put a lighter to it... it goes fast, and the carbon black in it makes for a big mess. If you backfill around your base, you may be better off using a peel and stick asphaltic foundation waterproofing like those produced by Tamko Corp. or WR Grace.

[peterthewolf]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

Stonylake-
You mean like bituthane?

[stonylake]

Re: Wrong dimensions - Help!!

that's the stuff! might want to use a primer on the block before you apply it.