Wisconsin Considerations

[vertigopilot]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Pouring concrete slabs in deep frost areas using sonotubes is yet another myth that just won't die. There is no credible evidence it does anything to prevent frost heave. In fact, it can create even more issues. Anyone that actually knows the science behind doing that kind of work will not fall for it. Do some research and learn some facts. Facts that are backed up w/proof. Not just internet folklore. Talk w/a few engineers and architects. Have them explain it to you. Do some research. Either way, I do wish you success w/your build. I just can't sit here and read this stuff w/out speaking up.

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice they are not. Architects are heavy on theory, but generally quite light on practice. Those with experience in the field tend not to rely so heavily on theory.

Still, MrChipster's quoted method is a well-accepted alternative to digging a basement.

[manumit]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

@NCMan - What do you think would happen if I were to do this? When I google I find a few people saying yeah I do that all the time for garages, but no research or data to speak of. What do you think of the below suggestion from mrchipster in #20

Isolated structure - Float a slab on 8 inches of class 5 well packed and 2 inches of sand on top then 6 inches of concrete with #4 rebar around the perimeter and wire across the whole thing.

I appreciate all suggestions.

[NCMan]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Pouring concrete slabs in deep frost areas using sonotubes is yet another myth that just won't die. There is no credible evidence it does anything to prevent frost heave. In fact, it can create even more issues. Anyone that actually knows the science behind doing that kind of work will not fall for it. Do some research and learn some facts. Facts that are backed up w/proof. Not just internet folklore. Talk w/a few engineers and architects. Have them explain it to you. Do some research. Either way, I do wish you success w/your build. I just can't sit here and read this stuff w/out speaking up.

[manumit]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Of the two which do you think is easier? I have zero experience doing this, but I've got a friend who has a skid-steer with the auger to drill the holes. If I did use sono-tubes how many do you think I'd need for the 42 inch oven base? From my knowledge-less perspective it seems like one on each corner of that would put them pretty close together, but if that's what I'd need to do then I don't want to do less.

[vertigopilot]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Has anyone seen a project use footing tubes instead of a full foundation?

I've used that method extensively to build slab-at-grade structures (other than pizza ovens) in deep-frost areas without any failures, using an auger drill to bore holes at the foundation corners and setting sono-tubes with #4 rebars which connect to the ground-level slab rebar. MrChipster's recommendations (at post #20) on sub-slab prep is also very good. I've built structures using that same method, and all have withstood many frost cycles without issues.

Both methods are considerably easier (and less expensive) than putting a footing 5' down in the ground. Of course, there could be some benefit to building a pizza oven with a root cellar.

[manumit]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Has anyone seen a project use footing tubes instead of a full foundation?

[manumit]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Menomonie, well I am a Stout Grad. 81 - Soil there is either sand or clay if near the river and if on a hill you might get lucky and be directly on sandstone.

I think there are two rules here for frost.

1) Attached to something else - you need footings (MN code 42 inches)

2) Isolated structure - Float a slab on 8 inches of class 5 well packed and 2 inches of sand on top then 6 inches of concrete with #4 rebar around the perimeter and wire across the whole thing.

Feel free to PM me for directions to the house. I will put something in the oven with enough notice.

Our ground is very sandy. Heck, even the top soil is mostly sand. I guess as I read and think a bit more solid footings seem like the way to go. There is a maple not terribly far from where I want to build, so I think I'd be wise to put footings deep enough to not worry about roots moving anything.

I don't get over to the cities very often(3 kids under 3 yrs old), but next time I'm heading that direction sans kids I'll shoot you a PM and hopefully come by.

[mrchipster]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

A backhoe would make the foundation digging sound a lot easier! If you started this summer Felix, I'd love to come see it in progress.

The consensus seems to be yes. I do actually have to dig a deep hole and get some good footings.

Has anyone seen comparisons on heat retention between an oven that is (pardon my lack of correct terminology) the dome externally verses the squared off building style? Can an insulated dome keep enough heat to do bread the day after a fire?

In Wisconsin I would build a house because of the rain and snow. I can do bread at 48 hours after fire day because the first day after fire is still over 600 or more. I left the social director SWMBO in charge of bread the day after a fire and told her to keep the door off for at least 3 hours before putting the bread in and well... She forgot to cool it down. So the bread went in at 700 and as you can imagine it came out looking like a chunk of coal 20 minutes later.

BTW: You can easily do bread the next day with almost any oven, just follow the plans and make a good insulated door. But as the prior story says you might need to cool it down first.

[mikku]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Why aren't you guys out fishing for walleye? Foundations can be built any time but if the ice is gone, no better time for catching and eating walleye! Nobody likes working in the rain (actually a good reason for electricians to go home) but if it is fishing or hunting, the elements are of no importance!

[mrchipster]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Hi, I just saw I was mentioned in this post. You are more than welcome to come see my oven sometime.

Menomonie, well I am a Stout Grad. 81 - Soil there is either sand or clay if near the river and if on a hill you might get lucky and be directly on sandstone.

I think there are two rules here for frost.

1) Attached to something else - you need footings (MN code 42 inches)

2) Isolated structure - Float a slab on 8 inches of class 5 well packed and 2 inches of sand on top then 6 inches of concrete with #4 rebar around the perimeter and wire across the whole thing.

Feel free to PM me for directions to the house. I will put something in the oven with enough notice.

[mikku]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Depth of foundations of any type depend on the soil type.
If you are on bedrock like a lot of places in Northern Minnesota, drill in for some rebar anchors and start building.

If you are on areas where the soil is typically sand or gravel that is well drained, you would go with shallow footings and build from there.

If you have heavy clay soils that retain a lot of moisture--go as deep as possible. Below recommended frost depths.

If there are large trees around, or your build is in the shaded area for a large building, go deep again. Frost follows the tree's roots down and in shaded areas gets exceptionally deep.

You can cover the ground with straw or hay bales in the fall before frost begins to form and it will act the same as snow covering to prevent frost form driving down.

Check around your neighborhood to see how people do decks and which decks remain level and which pop up in the spring--then exceed the depths of the faulty decks!

[felix]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

I haven't sprung for either brick or board -- I am working on that. Other Minnesota WFO builders on this forum have used Smith-Sharpe in Minneapolis. They seem to have a very wide range of supplies in terms of fire brick, but I haven't asked about insulation. I would like a source for FoamGlas as well as CalSi board, so if you have identified a source, let me know.

As far as closer sources go, I know County Materials in our neck of the woods, carrys at least a standard fire brick.

I wish I were further along so I could be a better source, so I will be interested to know what you come up with.

Carl

[manumit]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

I'm thinking next summer would be the beginning of the project. I've got some other work that needs to be done this year.

Where did you buy your firebrick and insulating board at Felix?

[felix]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Manumit,

I am just north of you about an hour in Cumberland. I would be happy to show you a base, but I am afraid that is all it is at this point. I have a great desire to get the dome up this summer, but my social director keeps filling up my weekends, so it is likely that it won't happen. In the meantime, I keep learning on this forum and collecting materials and tools. What do you think your time frame is shaping up to be?
Carl

[manumit]

Re: Wisconsin Considerations

Menomonie. About 20 minutes west of Eau Claire.