Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

[Bradley]

I plan on doing at 65% water dough. I have read 100000 different ways to proof. I live in seattle and LOVE Tutta Bella pizza and thats what i want to make. So if you know how they do let me know
I was thinking to make the dough with cool water (70 degrees), Ball it then rest it at room temp 4 hours then in the fridge overnight
the dough recipe has fresh yeast and very little of it

or do you
Make the dough, proof it for a few hours THEN ball it and right into the fridge. meaning don't let the dough balls rise anymore at room temp. fridge for 24 to 48 hours

any help will do!!
thanks
Newibe Brad

[flyfisherx]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

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[Tscarborough]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

You should let it double once before balling and 'fridging to get the action started. I have had the best luck with an hour and then into the cold.

[texassourdough]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Bradley!

Four hours is almost certainly too long. But it depends on how much yeast you add to the mix. Use instant yeast. And I would start shorter - I don't personally feel it should double - once it is showing life (growing) commercial yeast will grow in the refrigerator pretty well. But... we all have different combos that work for "us".

WRT Balling the dough, I like to ball bread flour based doughs and 00 shortly after mixing - say a half hour to hour for both of those benefit from extended relaxation IMO. AP doughs can be balled after retarding with no problem.

I like to remove my dough from the fridge at about 2 hours before use. The first will typically be a bit underproofed at 2 hours and a couple of hours later they will be a bit over. But well within pizza tolerance!

Good luck!
Jay

[Bradley]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

thanks for the info Jay!

[Bradley]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

SO it looks like for my 65% water. I will mix water (about 80 degrees) and yeast let sit for a minute add the flour mix 2 min then rest for 20 min add salt mix 10 more min all on low. proof until double about 90 min. ball. in fridge overnight. pull out 1 hour before needed. make pizza. eat.
yes no maybe?

[texassourdough]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Your basic plan sounds reasonable Bradley. It should make a very reasonable first dough that you can easily correct/improve the next batch if need be. Go for it! Biggest question is what % yeast will work best on your schedule (% of flour weight). .2 to .3 % instant is probably about right but... Good Luck!

[Lburou]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

The PBS series called _America's Test Kitchen_ had a show featuring New York Style Pizza.

Their dough recipe included:

• 16.5 oz bread dough,
• 1 t Sugar,
• 1/2 t instant yeast,
• 1 1/2 cups ice water,
• 1 1/2 T table salt and
• 1 T oil.....
• Mix in Food processor for 10 seconds, then autolyse for 10minutes, followed by another 30-60 seconds in Food processor and straight to the refrigerator for at least 24 hours!

The idea of using ice cold water and skipping the ferment at room temperature for immediate refrigeration and a long cold ferment is to have smaller bubbles in the crust and more flavor for a thin, crisp crust.

Any comments?

[Lburou]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

I've finally worked it out........
If you take flour, water, yeast, salt, and sugar and oil if you feel like it, and mix it all together and wait a while, it'll turn into dough, and I'm starting to think it won't matter what else you do to it.
So many ways of mixing it together, and they all work!!!!!!!!

I know that sounds right....But, I have personally disproved the "It'll turn into (good) dough," part many times.

I'm looking for a thin dough that tastes good, is crispy, with a crust strong enough to hold the toppings and not slump too much. I've stumbled on to good tasting dough, crispy dough, and strong crust....but never at the same time. Haven't made all the mistakes one can make yet, but, I'm working on it.

Jay.....what do you think of skipping the room temperature rise?

[mrchipster]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

The following is my process for making pizza dough.

Consistency seems to be the key and in that regard I try to maintain exact measurements both in weight and temperature.

My recipe consists of as follows.

800 g unbleached unbrominated 13% protein bread flour. I am using "Dakota Maid Premium Bread Flour" from North Dakota Mill

480 g water

12 g salt (1.5 teaspoons)

1.5 teaspoons active dry yeast

56 g extra-virgin olive oil (1 Tablespoon)

I measure the temperature of the flour and adjust the water temperature to achieve 80?F after mixing.

The mixer will generate some heat. The last time I made dough the kitchen was 68?F the dough was 67?F and I used 75?F water to get 80?F after mixing.

The temperature of your room and mixing bowl and flour, all combine to make the final dough temperature.

Using a dough hook in the mixer combine the flour salt and yeast in the mixing bowl and turn on for 1 min. to blend the ingredients

With the bread mixer still on add the warm water slowly to the bowl, mixing for 2 min. Then add the olive oil. the oil is added last to prevent coating the flour and yeast grains with oil prior to hydration.

Mix for another 8 min. and remove dough from bowl. 10 minuite total wet mixing time.

Divide into 7 approximately 190 g balls. I use this size for 12 inch Pizzas.

Put each ball into a lightly oiled 1 quart Ziploc bag and "Right into the Fridge" refrigerate for 48 hours (my refrigerator is 40?F) punching down one time between 12 and 24 hours.

The dough will approximately double during the 48 hour cold ferment.

Remove bags from refrigerator approximately 1.5 - 2 hours before you're ready to use them.

I use a Bosch mixer. Pictured with the flour below.

The amount of yeast you use will affect the rise and consumption of the sugars in the flour and or mix if you have added sugar. Very little yeast will take longer to digest the sugars and more yeast will take less time to digest. Longer rise will develop better flavor up to a point... over proofing will degrade dough at about 72 hours - your mileage may vary.

Chip

[texassourdough]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Lee!

It is, I think shocking how good no knead bread can be...but it is not a universally good practice. Most casual bakers tend to either overmix (using a mixer and overoxidizing the dough to bad result) or severely undermix (with the result of getting inconsistent results). Undermixing per se, need not be bad. The dough must be mixed until it has some uniformity or it will typically be weird due to uneveness of hydration and yeast distribution.

The real issue I think with undermixing is that the gluten is underdeveloped and the gas retention in the dough during fermentation and proofing is tenuous - not so much that it won't retain gas so much as it is weak and cannot be handled without losing gas. Thus, the no knead, which plops the dough into a Dutch oven never to be touched again, works. Try to ferment it on a couche and transfer to a peel and then to the stone or hearth and you have...a dense pancake. As an aside, I find the "be gentle with the dough" mantra hilarious for I can make amazingly light, open crumb baguettes that are beaten into a 3/4 inch thick 4 x 9 rectangle. If you can't handle the bread roughly it is either underdeveloped or overproofed or both.

Now...to your question about room temperature rise... Let's break breadmaking down to the steps (after dough is adequately mixed/developed). The yeast should IMO be given some time to get going. If you do S&Fs that will provide an hour or so, maybe more, of bulk fermentation. At that point the yeast is going great. It can easily be retarded at that point. I am not as excited about immediate retards but not a big deal. Just needs to be kneaded some after the retard if using S&F and not somewhat developed before the retard. NOTE: back to the above comments. IF you retard immediately with minimal mixing/no S&F, there will be relatively poor gluten development but also little gas creation for the yeast will be relatively inactive. Cold temps help gas retention, so when you take it out of retard, give it some kneading/S&Fs and it should be pretty close to doing the S&Fs and then retarding. I don't see this as a big deal.

There are some who go straight to the oven from the retard. That I think is a mistake from multiple perspectives. IF the dough was properly developed and reasonably bulk fermented before retarding the results can be pretty good. Counting on the yeast to work in the refrigerator is a bit iffy though, especially for sourdough. I also believe the cold center of the loaf will tend to bake weird (a bit like the soft boiled white and yolk of a cold egg versus a room temp egg). I have done it. it need not be a disaster. It does tend to get you a crust with tiny bubbles that some people like. But... I think it is better to pull the retarded dough from the fridge. Stretch and work it a bit (which also helps warm it a bit and get the yeast redistributed and active. Then form the loaf and put it in a banneton and let it warm up. While I seem more reliable now, when I retard I used to tend to have a problem knowing when the dough was ready to bake. IMO it should be light and airy. If it is heavy, and especially still cold, it tends to give a denser/erratic crumb.

While I would argue that pizza dough tends to yield similar results I would also argue the acceptable variance in the proofing of pizza dough is such that it need not matter much.

Hope that helps!
Jay

[Lburou]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Lee!

....snip....While I would argue that pizza dough tends to yield similar results I would also argue the acceptable variance in the proofing of pizza dough is such that it need not matter much.

Hope that helps!
Jay

Always thought provoking Jay, thanks. As far as pizza dough is concerned is this (quoted above) your thesis statement then?

I think I might try going right from kneading to the refrigerator some time soon.

[texassourdough]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Lee!

I have been on the road....

You can go straight from the mixer to the fridge. It won't do much weird. The norm per Peter R is only 15 to 30 minutes at room temp as I recall for pizza dough. And yeah you take it out two hours before you make pies - well, I put my dough balls in trays and I take out a whole batch that may be out at room temp for six hours before they are baked - and they are still fine. The variation in proofing is not a big deal. Assuming the dough has been developed enough to hold gas, there will be plenty left and the proofing is not real critical.

The only way I see it being critical is if you are a minimal yeast user where you are counting on time to compensate for your low yeast dose. And even then it would only be a big deal in the extreme. (and you would know because your pies would be like dense cardboard.

[Lburou]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Lee!

...snip.... cardboard.....

Who told you?

We tried it (straight to the refrigerator with no rise time) and there was no value added, so will probably go to the 30 minute rise and then into dough balls.

Thanks Jay!

[TropicalCoasting]

Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

I go into the fridge 24 hrs after about 1 hourish on the bench
When it starts to grow, about double it goes in.
Next day it comes out about 1 hr before I knead/need it.
Flatten it out cold
Let it rise before it goes in
Might not be technically right but its producing excellent pizzas