Are brick ties a good idea?

[felix]

A couple of years ago I was itching to get an AS design WFO built next to our patio. The foundation and slab were completed and then I got distracted. I have now discovered this wonderful site and am off on the planning of a dome style and am reading as much as I can.

This is a pretty basic question, but it needs to be done up front...
I wondered if there was a need to embed "brick ties" into the foundation for when the oven eventually receives its veneer/facade. I have observed that when rock or brick are laid for a framed house, a space is maintained between the masonry material and the sheathing. I suspect that is to control moisture and is not important on a WFO, but should we take steps to tie the veneer/facade to the oven? Or can the rock/brick veneer be laid up tight to the foundation(stand) and cement board?

(I apoligize if this is a double post... I am still getting a hang of the site!)

Thanks for the advice!

Carl

[Gulf]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

Yes, brick ties are used to tie the brick to a wooden structure for stability and to allow the tie to cross a space between the two which allows moisture to settle to the footing and escape through weep holes. This is not needed when attaching into most masonry structures. This space may be preferred by a brick layer who wants some room for his fingers when laying the brick so he can keep his count up. But, not absolutely necessasary.
I did not have room for a whole brick to attach to my stand so I am attaching 1" slits to my block stand with "thin set". I will come back later and do as the "Faux Stone" folks do and grout in between them later.

I hope that I understood your question and that this helps.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

Just to be clear, on the foundation, yes, but on the brick of the oven no.

[Gulf]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

Just to be clear, on the foundation, yes, but on the brick of the oven no.

By foudation, if you mean the stand, I agree. For the oven, I believe in a space between the two, (no wall ties here either, though) just to be clear .
Edit: To clarify, I mean no ties, but some space between the outer arch and the decorative arch to keep the heat from transferring.

[felix]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

I appreciate the advice and guidance. I can see that it wouldn't hurt (and may help) to add brick ties to the foundation/stand. If a veneer is being laid up all the way to the roof (not a dome finish) would you leave a gap behind the veneer and secure with brick ties at the upper portion too?

This brings up another question... instead of the metal studs and cement board sheathing that I have seen others use, has anyone laid 4" wide block and then faced it with the veneer?

Thanks again!

Carl

[Tscarborough]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

Assuming the foundation is CMU and already laid without ties, you can do one of 2 things:

1) Use concrete nails or tapcons to install ties.
2) Use an adhered thin veneer directly to the CMU with no ties.

That applies to the foundation below the concrete hearth level. Also assuming that you are not in a seismic zone, then you can lay normal brick units on the hearth as a single wythe brick veneer without attaching them to anything. If you have the space, you could also build the wall as a 4" CMU backup and a full size (with embedded ties) brick or adhered thin brick veneer (no ties).

Sorry to be confusing, but the term "veneer" alone is really meaningless.


Edit-4" CMU are a PIA to lay, avoid them if you can.

[SableSprings]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

I struggled with the fact that I wanted the look of a barrel shape oven but the advantages of a Pompeii or Beaver tail dome. Ended up doing a modified (shortened beaver tail dome) oven and then put a barrel facade over the dome. I did not put any brick ties in place on the stand or outer dome areas. I've attached a few pictures to show how I put the facade in place. I left a 1" gap between the dome's perlcrete insulation and an outside vertical cement backer board. The backer board let me set the cut bricks directly to it to keep a clean line. When I started to arc over, I laid fiberglass insulation over the dome and then metal lathe over it. Next, I simply started laying the split bricks over to form the barrel facade. I was pretty happy how it turned out.

The stand was simply concrete block with mortar and tile (actually tile & travertine) applied directly to the vertical surfaces--no ties needed.

[felix]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

Thanks for the tips and ideas. I know my original post may have been confusing as my description may have been less than acurate... I have attached a picture this time with the concept I am attempting to understand. (I wish I could use CAD like some of the forum members, but this drawing would have taking me all day!)

In addition to wondering if the fa?ade should be attached to the stand and the upper enclosure, I wonder if the fa?ade is built in a reasonably strong manner, is the upper enclosure (studs and cement board) even needed. I know that on a home, you don't support the roof stucture on the facade brick/stone, but this is a fairly small structure. One would have to ensure that the loose insulation wouldn't fall down between the fa?ade and the stand, but that should be fairly easy to block.

I appreciate the opinions of those that have been there before!

Carl

[SableSprings]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

Don't skip proper structure/support for the upper enclosure! Even though it's a small structure, using a facade (no matter how well built) for any sort of support is asking for trouble. When I built my first winter's temporary shelter for my oven, I just cobbled together a frame to hold metal roofing sheets. I was amazed how much lateral movement there can be and realized proper building structure methods were pretty important for even smaller structures. I added a few pics below of my temporary cover and just before I removed it after building The Dragonfly Den around/over it.

My advice is to build a solid & sturdy frame--mine was NOT--and get a roof over your oven first. There are lots of folks in this forum who have documented and built sturdy, metal and/or wood frames to contain loose insulation and support the roof (under heavy snow loads). In my mind, the simplest method would be to set 4x4 posts on the foundation slab (adjacent to the four corners of the oven stand) and use them as the support posts for your oven enclosure's structure-no brick ties or attachment to the stand needed.

There will be plenty of time to work on a facade after you get a solid roof over the oven. As long as you think about leaving whatever space you'll need for installing a facade later, you'll be fine--again no brick ties needed. I also would recommend trying to build the roof line so that you have some cover in front while working the oven and enough covered space left & right to set things "out of the rain/snow" while you're cooking (which I did NOT have with my temporary enclosure).

[felix]

Re: Are brick ties a good idea?

Mike,

Thanks for the advice and guidance. I have looked at your installation with envy -- the screened enclosure would be very useful in Wisconsin land!

I definitely will ensure that the structure is adequate to handle our weather!

The reason I am exploring finishing options so early in the build is the fact that since I changed my mind about the type of oven I want to build after the pad was poured, it is slightly too narrow for the 42" oven (given the plans on-line). I am noodling ways to save width and not give up insulation or oven size. I know it can be done, but I am just considering options.

This morning, I was reviewing Dino's build (another great one!) and that approach may be a better way to go. If I can use the manufactured stone with thinset on the enclosure, I don't need the extra 12" on the slab, or so, to support the rock or brick. That would help quite a bit towards making it work.

It is great to see everyone's ideas and how they did it. As has been said many times, it is great that everyone shares!

Carl