Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

[RocketStoveBuilder]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

stonecutter,

agreed, portland cement is not suitable for our application. Thanks for your caution.

We used calcium aluminate cement found in Rutland's Dry Refractory Mortar Mix . We are experimenting now, as mentioned above.

I've also contacted Rutland for their input.

Be glad to share what we learn and post photos, here and on our website when finished, along with the results.

[thickstrings]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

RSB, I can't tell from the picture, What type of heater is it....Mass? Bell? Other? I have made a few simple ones, and I am convinced that it is the way to go for my shop heater...I am leaning towards the bell type, but can't get over the core price....and the chiminey tile price...so I guess I'll keep feeding "Old Smokey" Making one is far different from producing them for sale... Good luck to you! edit...Don't know if this will work, http://www.skylinecomponents.com/Cer...ercoating.html but I have thought to use this over CF board in the heat riser section.....could be viable, just heat and no mechcanical abrasion...

[RocketStoveBuilder]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

tsrings,

mass heater.

As you've observed, bells are more expensive, much more in many cases, which is why we are starting with mass heaters.

Once we can manufacture our own flues, bells will our next project.

Our first rsmh heats our shop - nicely too I might add. Not as hot as a wood stove and the next morning, because of the heated mass, the chill is not there when we go to light the stove for the day. Very nice.

Buying silica sand yesterday at the local bldg. supply, we scored enough scrap cut-offs to heat our shop for a few weeks, free. More free fuel where that came from too.

[thickstrings]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

Do you have a opinion on the rigidizer in the above edit?

[michelevit]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

I have never worked on developing a homemade a refractory mix design, but I can tell you that using portland cement ( component of the 3:1:1:1 mix) for your application would not be a good idea.

It doesn't appear that you have though. Pics of your test brick would be cool.

If you have never worked with the homemade refractory mix, why do you think portland is not a good idea?

[thickstrings]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

Because portland, don't quote me, breaks down around 600f and these stoves will get 3 times that hot , in the combustion chamber....

[stonecutter]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

If you have never worked with the homemade refractory mix, why do you think portland is not a good idea?

What I said, was that I have never developed a homemade REFRACTORY mix.

I have used bagged refractory mortars like Heatstop50 and others brands, multiple times, on multiple builds. The 3:1:1:1 mix is NOT, repeat, NOT a refractory mix. It is considered fire mortar...a heat RESISTANT material, not refractory. Why?.......

Portland is not a refractory material, ie: it does not maintain it's strength at high temperatures. Therefore, it is not a suitable material for sustained high temperatures. This is not my opinion, it is a fact, and very well documented.

So, seeing as how this is not a personal project, and that optimum quality ( and correct use of material) is at the forefront of the OP's objective, then using Portland in a refractory application is folly, based on the facts.

[michelevit]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

Portland cement when mixed with fireclay, lime and sand at a 3:1:1:1 WILL sustain
high temperatures.
I've built an oven and using the 3:1:1:1 as refractory and it works great.

If it were to fail at high temps as you claim, wouldn't all the brick pizza ovens that use this as formula as mortar would fail, no? The mortar is subjected this same heat.

Portland on its own is bad, but mixed with fireclay, lime, and 3 parts sand works great
as mortor and refactory.

I've done it and recommend it.

[stonecutter]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

Portland cement when mixed with fireclay, lime and sand at a 3:1:1:1 WILL sustain
high temperatures.
I've built an oven and using the 3:1:1:1 as refractory and it works great.

If it were to fail at high temps as you claim, wouldn't all the brick pizza ovens that use this as formula as mortar would fail, no? The mortar is subjected this same heat.

Portland on its own is bad, but mixed with fireclay, lime, and 3 parts sand works great
as mortor and refactory.

I've done it and recommend it.

For the last time, 3:1:1:1 is not a refractory mix.

And no, brick ovens will not fail with this mix because they are not dependent on the mortar to hold it together. A brick dome ( or vault) has gravity, friction, and reinforcement ( as in reinforced cladding), working with the mortar cohesion to keep the structure together... a cast dome does not.

Castings are reliant on the material used, and are enhanced with reinforcement. If the material fails..spalling, degradation, crumbling...then the dome has failed or is in a state of failure. Some of the cracking issues are solved by segmenting the dome, but with a poor mix, it is only a matter of time. Some refractory mixes do contain some Portland, but nowhere near the ratios used in the 3:1:1:1. It is there primarily for early strength, that is about it...the bulk of the binding and strength is from Alumina, Mullite, Magnesia, or Silica.

Having spoken with several refractory manufacturers, they all concur with what I am relaying here.

I am not trying to convince you....this info is for someone considering 3:1:1:1 for a cast oven. Call a ceramic engineer or speak to a tech at the refractory manufacturer like I have, they will tell you the same thing about Portland in a high temp application.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

Because calcium silicate hydrate and calcium hydroxide (primary hydration products of portland cement) both begin disintegrating at around 500 degrees F.

When used as a mortar in a thin joint, this is not an issue as most of the other reaction products that are produced are able to withstand oven temps, but it DOES matter when used in mass applications (cracking and spalling).

[michelevit]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

In 2008 I built a brickless pizza oven using the homebrew formula and it has not disintegrated. It has survived countless firings and shows no sign of failure. No cracking. No spalling.

The refractory manufactures are in the business of manufacturing and selling
refractory. I already know the answer they will give me.

I have proven that the homebrew does work as a refractory casting material.
Why is everyone so adamant that it wont work? It does work. Its is what is used
to hold a traditional brick oven together.

[stonecutter]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

You're right, decades of testing, chemical engineering and common knowledge are overrated.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

You have said that in your instance it worked, nothing more nothing less. Stonecutter and myself are both in the masonry industry, and as such, do not give advice based upon anecdotal evidence. We give what is known as "best practice" advice, and do so for a very good reason: For you it worked, and that is good. For the next person, it may or may not, based upon too many variables to predict. With best practices, you are almost guaranteed a successful project within a broad range of variables, because that is what they are: What works on a consistent basis.

It is up to the individual to make the call on what to use, but hopefully they will listen to best practice of the industry, not anecdotal advice.

[cobblerdave]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

Gudday
I was of the understanding that the Portland cement component of the homebrew was the "glue" which held the structure together till the dome was completed and fired. Then fired the Portland would break down in the heat and the lime component would harden and provide the long term glue to prevent the mortar from crumbling. The clay component was only there to provide a more workable and plastic mortar during construction.
Once the dome was complete and fired the mortar instead of being the glue that held the structure up,the mortar was now the cushion between the brick during heating and cooling. The strength of the forno oven was in the fact it was a dome structure not in the strength of the homebrew mortar.
Anyway that's my take on homebrew mortar, its perfect for what it's designed to do but to expect to do something else...
As for michelvits oven. If an adobe oven can work why not. But for how long?
I would like to see a current photo now that I think about it
Regards dave

[michelevit]

Re: Your Advice Re: HomeBrew Castable Mix Greatly Appreciated

You're right, decades of testing, chemical engineering and common knowledge are overrated.

I'm not discounting the fact that commercially available engineered products work, just that a much cheaper more readily available home brew version does as well.

so once again

one part portland
one part lime
one part fireclay
three parts sand
mixed dry
add minimal water.

This mixture once cured will form into a rock hard structure that will survive many years of scary fires and can achieve the desired 90 second pizza. It will not crumble, crack or disintegrate.