Trying to buy a kit - don't know what i don't know!

[pizza_zee]

Thank you for having such an incredible sight. Pizza-zee of Chet z here. We are building out our back deck and plan to install a WFO. The question is which one?

Some background to help...We love to cook, smoke as in BBQ (green egg for about 15 years), make sausage (love restaurant depot), and my wife and daughter are true bakers faking clay pots for a WFO. So, we want to make true Neapolitan pizza (aspire too anyway) as well as baking and cooking. We comfortably cook for 15 to 20 folks and enjoy sharing our time together. We are also building our Bocce ball court (had one at previous house). so you can get the full picture of spending time with friends, food and drink.

I am comfortable with a kit, growing up working with my uncle as a stone mason

Based on my limited reading over the past several weeks, I have gravitated to the Volta or Forno Bravo.

The Volta 120 has a 47.2" cooking area, 22" wide door. Stated price of 120 is $2,200

https://www.grillsnovens.com/outdoor...n-kit-106.html

Casa2G series 110 which has 1 44? inside surface $ stated price of $3,150

https://www.fornobravo.com/store/cas...izza-oven-kit/

or the

Premio2G110 Premium which has a 44? inside surface price of $3,650

https://www.fornobravo.com/product-s...s-pizza-ovens/

Is this cooling area just right? Are there meaningful differences in the heat up time? The Heat retention for baking, etc? I know the Forno Brovo come with stainless steel chimneys, so there would be additional costs for Volta.

Also, these are stated prices, are their better Friends and family rates?

Any insights would greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Pizza_zee

[UtahBeehiver]

I am curious, if you have masonry skills from your uncle why not build an oven from readily available materials? Nothing wrong with a kit but there are dozens of builds on this site built from scratch and with no masonry experience. Here is a link of well documented builds

http://www.fornobravo.com/community/...n-the-archives

[pizza_zee]

Thanks for quick reply. Sadly, I do not have the time w work. I can easily finish the dome stc with stone, but I will not have za for a long time if I build from scratch

[dakzaag]

I think the least expensive option you have listed is not a great option as you will be disappointed in both the quality and performance of the oven. Additionally you have expressed the desire to bake and cook with residual heat and this comes from a high quality oven with lots of insulation. Even the more expensive options will struggle with this type of performance because there simply isn't enough mass and high quality insulation in these kits to provide this kind of performance. (in my humble opinion) I suggest you continue to research options, as your willingness to assemble and complete the project yourself opens a number of possibilities that you have not listed and these options will give you the time to enjoy the oven instead of always chasing the steep temperature curve.

[pizza_zee]

Dakzaag,

Thanks for your help. OK, i'm here to learn and am trying to gather the necessary info to make good decisions. You stated that even the more expensive kits will not provide a high quality oven with lots of insulation. So, is it possible to customize a kit (the more expensive one) to add the necessary insulation or is it just not possible?

If not possible, what are the critical elements of a build that make it better? it would seem counter intuitive to start from scratch when others have had mastered the process. Or, is it the process and design that is most critical and the kit cannot achieve the same level of quality? i am spinning in circles and can use some guidance on what i get with a good kit, what i can do, if anything to make the kit better, and what i get from building a customer oven? any help would be greatly appreciated.

pizza_zee

[pizza_zee]

Reposting links to oven options.


The Volta 120 has a 47.2" cooking area, 22" wide door. Stated price of 120 is $2,200

https://www.grillsnovens.com/outdoor...n-kit-106.html

Casa2G series 110 which has 1 44? inside surface $ stated price of $3,150

https://www.fornobravo.com/store/cas...izza-oven-kit/

or the

Premio2G110 Premium which has a 44? inside surface price of $3,650

https://www.fornobravo.com/product-s...s-pizza-ovens/

Some additional questions:

Is there sufficient insulation to retain heat for baking? is the floor thick enough to retain the needed heat? Are there meaningful differences in the heat up time? The Heat retention for baking, etc? I know the Forno Bravo come with stainless steel chimneys, so there would be additional costs for Volta.

Should i be considering a build - (although it will be hard to devout the time to such a great project right now

Also, these are stated prices, are their better Friends and family rates?

Any insights would greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Pizza_zee

[RandyJ]

If you are set on doing a kit you should look at the professional series line Tha forno bravo sells. I think they have 4"thick dome and lots of extra insulation. This will go a long way toward what you are looking for. Otherwise you should really consider building your own.

Randy

[dakzaag]

I think that you want to consider an oven with a lot of mass and a lot of insulation. I can certainly understand not wanting to tackle the building process, but there are kits available that are high mass and highly insulated. Obviously you spend more for those than lighter ones. The mass combined with excellent insulation is what gives you a longer heat window, which you will appreciate when you have three, four, five even six days to cook after the fire has gone out. Typically the builds on here are 4.5" dome and 2.5" floor. You could certainly consider a 3" floor for baking bread and pastry. A prebuilt oven will have insulation under the dome that cannot be changed, the best heat retention comes from 4 or more inches of high quality insulation such as Cal Sil Board or perhaps Skamol. If you find an oven with a 2" refractory floor, then you could add split Fire Brick to the floor and increase the mass of the floor, but it is pretty hard to change the dome.
The prefab units just cannot have that kind of mass because they get really heavy and difficult to ship. Sometimes the prefabs are cut back on insulation because it is relatively expensive (like 10-15 times more than typical construction insulation) I know my costs for these materials and I have a pretty good feel for wholesale prices and when I see an oven advertised under 2 grand, I know inferior materials are being used. The lighter ovens work fine for pizza because you have a live fire keeping everything hot.
We just want you to realize that like anything else, you get what you pay for and it pays to look around and hopefully find something you will like, and not break the bank. The last thing you want is to get an oven that isn't performing the way you want and have to start over. I wish I was closer, I have the perfect brick for a high quality oven I would sell you at cost.
Another question I have for you is size. how did you come to the 44" size?

[pizza_zee]

Guys,

several observations, answers and. of course additional questions. First, the WFO will be on an upper deck in backyard. The weight of the kitchen and WFO have been designed into the structure by engineer, so we have sufficient joists, etc. However, its location will be at the right angle of the kitchen and i will not be able to access the back of the unit when attempting to lay all the bricks in a custom build. I am humbled by the craftsmanship of many of the builds i reviewed in the past few days. That said, given the weight requirement and accessibility of the oven, i don't see how i can attempt a custom unit. That is my thinking of purchasing a kit. please let me know if my assumptions are wrong.

Dakzaag, as far as the size, i am guessing so that i can cook several Pizzas at once of several components of a meal. I have not seen a rendering of the fire, pizzas etc inside of the footprint, so i have no idea. Suggestions?

so, as for weight, am i locked into a kit, if so, how to a get one that can be tweaked to accomplish goals? as for size? please let me know.

I am already so thankful for your guidance.

pizza_zee

[RandyJ]

Have yoy looked at this.https://www.fornobravo.com/store/mod...izza-oven-kit/

I think that will give you what you are looking for. It has a lot more insulation than the standard kits so you would not need to add a ton of extra materials. Are you planning to do a enclosure or igloo for the finish? Do you have any pictures of the area that you are planning to build?

Randy

[david s]

Often one of the first questions people ask is " how many pizzas can fit in the oven?" This usually turns out to be pretty irrelevant for most homeowners because they quickly realise that it takes longer to prep the pizza than it does to cook it. Unless you have two or more people prepping you won't be cooking multiple pizzas. Most find that they cook one pizza at a time even though their ovens are big. My own oven is small so two pizzas at a time is a squeeze. We usually cook one at a time and share whatever comes out. A large oven has the disadvantage of being massively heavy because of the maths of volume. Consequently this means that a small increase in diameter means a huge increase in volume and then materials, weight and cost let alone fuel required for firing. With a big oven you won't be firing it up to cook 3 pizzas whereas with a small oven you often do. There are times that i wish my oven were larger, but they are outweighed by the times I'm glad it's small. Consider very carefully the weight you are putting on that deck. My own pizza cooking record is 70 pizzas in one night, but a fishing club that hired my mobile oven (21" diam internal) did 190 (two at a time) in one night. I doubt whether you'd fit that many people on your deck including the oven.

[RandyJ]

David is right you will most likely not ever cook more than 2 pizzas at one time. It gets to be a lot to pay attention to, and also you will have if you are good 4 min prep and 2.5 min cook time for 2 pizzas. The place that a big oven does Excell is in baking bread. You can get more loves in and have more mass for extended baking and roasting. Witch you can't do in a small low mass oven. There are plusses and minus to both. You just need to know what you want to see happen.

Randy

[pizza_zee]

Guys,

Thanks for the advice and the kindest of a member to talk to me! There is a trade off of mass vs. heat retention, especially for the kits. What i see, is to get a greater thickness in the dome will require a bigger dome (they just don't make the greater mass int he smaller diameters (new opportunity I would imagine). we are meeting with deck folks soon and deciding on the options. I am certain that i understand enough to get into trouble and have since learned that my concrete guy is a forno dealer and has install several to date. I will keep the group posted. thanks for your insight and help.

[davemartin88]

We built a Casa90 from Forno Bravo and it works great. The larger versions you're looking at might work for you. We cook 2 pizzas at a time and I wouldn't want to try to stay on top of any more than that. Our oven easily gets to 900 degrees or more and we routinely bake bread the next morning. Not as much mass as other posters are talking about but certainly would consider a kit from Forno Bravo. You can always add an extra layer of insulation before finishing your dome but I think it pays to be realistic on just how often you'll cook 20 pizzas or bake too many loaves of bread to fit in an oven. Good luck with your build.