What's the Dough secret?

[dublintom]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

How do people treat their dough after a long cold ferment. I have found that if you make your dough balls and put them in individual containers they are very wet and sticky after 24 hours in the fridge, 65% hydration. They are difficult to get out of the containers even if the container is well oiled. How long before using the dough balls do you allow before taking out of the fridge? Do you leave the dough ball in the individual container until you are ready to use. I am also wondering about a bulk ferment in the fridge and making the dough balls a couple of hours before use and leaving them at room temperature.
When i cooked in a standard oven with a pizza stone i always used a bread flour fresh yeast and olive oil. I would do a 3 hour starter, then mix the dough leave for an hour and make the dough balls and leave for an hour at room temperature and it worked great. But i am struggling with the 00 flour and cold rise.

[texassourdough]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

If there is a secret to "dough" I would suggest it lies in figuring out what you want your dough to be like. 00, oil, no oil, biga, sourdough, high hydration, cold retard, preball, postball, etc. all provide different end results and they are only preferable if they take you toward a dough/pie with characteristics you want. Once you figure out what you like and want you can then talk about techniques and possibly secrets but until you have a goal the secrets are pretty meaningless IMO.

Last time we did pizzas (about three weeks ago before leaving for Italy - report soon to be uploaded) I did three doughs because I happen to prefer different doughs for different toppings. One was 00 (because I am out of my favorite organic AP) for margherita and sparser pies, a NeoNeopolitan dough (with oil and honey) for wetter pies, and a sourdough dough for a new pizza I am working on and for flatbread. The 00 and NeoNeo were balled before retarding. The sourdough was AP and was balled after retarding. And they each give very different results.
Jay

[lwood]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Jay, I/we all want to hear about your trip to Italy...with pics. haha

[C5dad]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Mix, cold ferment overnight, bring to temp, ball (or ball and bring to temp) and bake. Do just gotta be warm so it will stretch. Warm is 75 F to 80 F

[mikesuttie]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

I use 4 part 00 grade floour to 1 part fine semolina flour, dry active yeast, warm water, olive oil, salt and a bit of honey to give sweetness and activate the yeast. Let it raise for an hour or so then divide into 200-230g balls, cover and prove for a bit.

I used to go barebones flour, salt, water, yeast but then started playing about with it a bit and quite frankly I (and everyone that samples them) say it's the best dough. Each to their own really! I think a lot is in the technique though, never using a rolling pin is a definite and from my days as a pizza chef I learnt the art of stacking and pressing the doughs to stretch. Maybe I do a little video of this if there isn't one already.

Saying this it took a lot of tries to get what I wanted.

[PlanoPhil]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Mike

Interesting! What is stacking and pressing all about?

Phil

[mikesuttie]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Mike

Interesting! What is stacking and pressing all about?

Phil

Lol nothing special just stacking up like 4 or 5 dough balls at a time, nice and floured and pressing them and stretching them out in a stack. A lot of people I've seen handstretching doughs seem to do it individually, one dough at a time!

[tgm]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Phil,

Start out very simply by using the basic recipe that has been used for hundreds of years, flour, water, yeast and salt and you will have perfect pizzas from the start. We started using the recipe and techniques as we were taught by Roberto (yes that Roberto) in Pittsburgh 7 yrs ago when we put our oven in and haven't been disappointed once.
We use the basic VPN recipe of 1780g of CAPUTO flour, 3g of FRESH YEAST, 1 liter of WATER and 1.5oz. of SALT, that's it.....nothing else is required for perfect pizzas!
We use an 8hr room temp. rise and then cook. Works perfectly every time. This is how Roberto did it in his 2 Pittsburgh pizzerias and who am I to argue with success.
Do what ever you have to to get CAPUTO 00 and I guarantee you will not be disappointed.
You do not need oils, bigas, sugars, etc to master good pizza. All you need is what is listed above and a good hot oven and you will impress all of your friends and family.

Good Luck,

Tom in PA

[dublintom]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Tom is that really 3 grams of fresh yeast in that receipe . I have been using 20 grams of fresh yeast to 600 grams of flour.
Tom

[tgm]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Tom,

That's all that we use. I too was shocked when Roberto gave us the recipe during our initial lessons and it works just fine. Everyone that I have told the recipe to says the same thing in amazement. We get perfect results every time. You're using 20 times the yeast we are using.......holy cow!!!
Try it as I have listed above and see what you think.

Tom in PA

[PlanoPhil]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Tom
Thanks for the detailed advice. I'm coming along pretty good with my dough making but still a ways to go. Getting to that perfect moment when it is extensible with the right amount of elasticity is a challenge. One issue that I have is my dough balls develop a skin unless I apply oil to them before placing in the fridge. Some receipts do not say to apply oil. I'm wondering how they avoid the skin?

Phil

[Tman1]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

about a skin on the dough: perhaps there is too much air in your holding vessel? I use, as do others here, 5 cup plastic Glad containers. I put a small pinhole in the tops to release air as the dough rises and haven't had any issues (which I didn't do the first time ). If you think about it, a lot of times recipes call for oiling the bowl/vessel, and turning the dough over and around to coat it.. this helps for 'skin' reduction.

[PlanoPhil]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Tman
I was using the glad containers as prescribed by Jeff Varasano's Famous New York Pizza Recipe. He is very picky when it comes to using oil. Says to apply a very thin coating on the container, which I did. I closed them tight with no hole, (I was wondering if I was going to open my fridge in the morning and find a dough explosion) , and the skin appears every time. I have since changed to the zip lock bag method, applying oil to the ball and now there is no skin. Experimentation continues.

[tgm]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Phil,
Buy yourself some cheap Tupperware or other flat plastic containers with lids. We just smear the bottom with a light coat of olive oil and put 5 dough balls in each and then snap on the lid. No skin ever and actually keeps in some of the heat generated from fermentation to help move thing along.

Good Luck,

Tom in PA

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: What's the Dough secret?

Phil,
My method like others here, is always a small zip-lock/tupperware containers for each ball. I spritz lightly the bottoms and I try to get the sides with Spray Can Oil (Pam) and I cover them with the blue plastic lids they come with. I have a 1" knife slit in the tops of each of these lids I use. I marked the lids so I know to use them only with my doughs.

I never have dry balls (), even with the slit. My dough is very hydrated though. I try for about 75% hydration. I go by feel and need to push myself until the dough is uncomfortably wet...then I know I'm where I want to be. Maybe that keeps the skin moister.



This pic above is just to show you how loose and wet my dough balls get after I take them out of the fridge to come to room temp before I make the pizza bases. Still I'm going to try the large zip-lock bag with 6 or 9 dough balls and see if it works for me too.

Good luck, Dino