BBQ Coach

[deejayoh]

Re: BBQ Coach

^^^

That is a better answer than I would have had. I would guess that hardieboard would work on a 12-14' radius, but it sounds like the product Tracy mentions is designed for that.

Bigger issue will be getting the metal studs to curve. I would guess that just requires cutting slots along the back side of the top and bottom track to allow it to curve.

[texman]

Re: BBQ Coach

i had the same problem. Seems like we are always making something round out of square stuff. It becomes a habit after a while.;
I don't have a very good answer. I built my counters out of the 20ga. studs. The inside facing i kept flat with angles. I couldn't figure out how to make the flat door frames and drawer units, grills and frig look good in a radius. Since i was building a bar and needed a wide base, i used the CMUs and core filled to create the curve and base for the bar and then faced with full brick to hide the cmu and make and even wider base for the bar. Then finished with the concrete lid.
Tracy

[billwil]

Re: BBQ Coach

Awesome, guys. Thanks. Okay, Texman...so you made the operating side of the bar squared off (but angled) and the business side of the bar (the drinking side) round with CMU/brick. Is that right?

My rounded feature (well, everything in my design is rounded...and every material from the pavers to the CMU and studs to the brick veneer I'm using is square...what is wrong with us) is rounded from the front (and squared in the back into a hill (and through an existing retaining wall)...so it sounds like I'm doing it backwards. On this curved face I will have the opening to my wood storage, a gas BBQ, and at least one stainless door system (I've included a couple of renderings...it may be hard to see the curve, but hopefully it helps). I'm still trying to figure out how to do this with studs/cement board. If I resort to CMU and give up all the space inside, my plan is to make the curve and use concrete cores and rebar to sturdy it up. If I do this, do I have to cut the CMU or is leaving gaps in the "back" okay. Also, I'm hoping to not mortar the wall in the traditional fashion (for time's sake) and use a surface bonding cement on the face to waterproof it and help bind the blocks together (since I can't really do that in the back without cutting, the concrete cores and rebar are providing strength, not the surface bonding cement). Any suggestions along these lines?

I was planning on using half blocks of 6" CMU (i.e. 6x8x8) to easily make the curve (could probably get away with full blocks on my big curve, actually, but my firepit-2 foot radius, and firepit seating-4 and 5 foot radii, will need the half block).

Really thought, I'd like to use studs/concrete boards because they're lighter, easy, and provide more in-cabinet space. I ask again...why do we like curves so much? Don't answer that.

I'm starting to wonder if I need to make the cabinet itself more of a polygon and do a nice curve just on the countertop...

[texman]

Re: BBQ Coach

Bill
Nice job on the render. I see what you are trying to do and i think you can use the metal studs and something like the permabase and make it work.
And yes, my business(drinking) side is round and the work side is flat and angled.
I would use the metal instead of the CMU because it is so much easier and you will have SOo much more storage room. I left gaps in the back of the cmus to make the curve on mine. No problem because i was covering it up. I think that is the case for you as well with the board/studs: if you are going to veneer with rock/brick/stone=no problem(like your render) Just put some brick ties in to the cboard and studs. The veneer layer can be manipulated (grinder) to accept the flat frame of a stainless door set and look very nice. If you want a stucco finish, it would be tough around the flat doors, but a good pro could do it, i think.
On the back wall: i set my cmus dry (other than the first course that i leveled) and put rebar and concrete in the cores. I think you can use studs/permabase there as well. I had never used the metal studs before this project. The seem flimsy at first, but once cut, set and glued and screwed with good concrete board, they are rock solid. Some of the builders(deejay) have used the Trex type material to set the metal on between the concrete floor and studs. Gives a nice rot proof kick layer and looks good too. The normal toe kick area on outdoor cabinets is difficult and i chose to pass on that. Give some thought to your counter material at this point. If you are planning something like a thick concrete counter be sure and add the necessary framework to hold the weight. If a lighter weight counter is the plan, no worries.
Also consider the weight factor of all of this on your existing slab. I am not sure if you poured the slab especially for this project or it was existing and being retasked. Pizza ovens and bricks and all this stuff really add up. I did the flat inside with angles to save some weight and depth that another layer of brick would have added. A 24" interior with 4" bricks in the front and back jumps to a 34" counter depth w/ overhang. Conversely, a 24 counter w/ brick on both sides below and a 1' overhang leaves only around 15" inside.

As far as the big radius setup, i would get it laid out on your floor and build the squares of metal studs along the radius lines spaced according to the load you expect. Set them with tapcons and then tie them together with more metal and glue and screw the board on. The smaller radius of the firepit and others: permabase makes another product that they say is more flexible and would bend to your desired radius. Google permabase, it is a Natl gypsum product.
I like curves. I know somebody will build a twin dome oven, just wait.
Tracy

[billwil]

Re: BBQ Coach

Thanks, Tex.

LOL, first of all, don't worry about the slab. I've attached two pics; how the area looked a couple of weeks ago and how it looked last night now that the contractor has his guys digging (chiseling) trenches in our soil (rock) .

SIDENOTE: You've all heard the parable of the houses built on the sand and the rock, right? Well, let's just say our house ain't going anywhere.

The point is, though, that I've just barely started work on this, and there is nothing back there yet except for the existing retaining wall out of split-face block that the builder put in. It's a blank slate, baby. I'll be putting in a 5-1/2" reinforced slab (with the curve) specifically to accommodate the build. The hearth slab, though, will be poured partially on the base and partially on another slab that I'll be pouring at about 30"-33" off grade level (after pavers) directly on top of the hill behind the retaining wall that I'm digging out. I don't know exactly how high, yet, as the contractor hasn't finished grading the whole thing, so I don't know where the grade will be, exactly. I'll be removing two courses of the existing retaining wall for approximately 10 linear feet for this build. Digging another 6 inches or so below that, and pouring a reinforced slab there, too, as a base for the new, pushed back retaining wall that will be necessary (I'll try to match the split-face block on that part) as well as the WFO hearth pour that will span the higher slab and the top of the base (made out of CMU). Then the plan is to build the cabinets to both sides of the WFO stand (this is what I'm trying to figure out) out of studs/cement board or CMU. Either way, it will be finished with brick veneer (about an inch+ in thickness). I've attached a top-down view to help visualize. For the oven, I'm planning a 3.5" hearth, a 3.5" pour of vermicrete (or similar) the size of the "oven house", and then 2 inches of FB board on top of that under the actual dome. That should get me at a vent (floor) height of about 40" to 43". Might go higher...just not sure yet. The counter around it will be poured at the standard 36" height.

Speaking of the counter top, which will span across all of it, right up to the structure of the WFO and across the whole counter, will be a poured-in-place concrete counter (like yours and DJO's). It will be heavy. I've never done anything like that before, so believe me, I'm following you guys very closely. Also, DJO has a hearth slab built partially on a stand and partially on grade...so that's been of particular interest, too. So...thanks, guys.

Tex...I'm a little confused on what you're saying around building the arch into the cabinets with the studs. I know the concrete board will bend (I looked up the specs on the standard stuff that DJO used, and even that will do a 5-foot radius, I guess), but how would I frame it with a curve? Do you mean frame it with straight lines, angled, but then curve the cement board across that? That's kind of what I was thinking...but haven't used steel studs before (but I've framed plenty of walls...just always straight...and using wood).

I like the idea of the Trex material, and if it bends, I will want to use that, I think. DJO...do you think it would work on an arch like mine? For the fire pit and fire pit seating, I'll just build it out of CMU half-blocks to accommodate the tighter radii, keep it simple, etc. Those will be finished in the brick veneer as well. Maybe I'll show a render of the whole thing soon. What I need to do is start a thread on the build...I'm going to be asking a LOT of questions...I can tell. So thanks again, everyone, for all of the great examples as well as the willingness to help. BTW, I laughed out loud re: the double domed oven. I agree...someone will do it.

[texman]

Re: BBQ Coach

Tex...I'm a little confused on what you're saying around building the arch into the cabinets with the studs. I know the concrete board will bend (I looked up the specs on the standard stuff that DJO used, and even that will do a 5-foot radius, I guess), but how would I frame it with a curve? Do you mean frame it with straight lines, angled, but then curve the cement board across that? That's kind of what I was thinking...but haven't used steel studs before (but I've framed plenty of walls...just always straight...and using wood).

yes, let the board curve where it attaches to your framing. Its' only purpose is a weather layer, structure support and to hold the brick ties. Sounds like it will all be concealed by brick. The steel studs are not to bad at all. Tin snips, vice grips, drill and screws. You have a great spot and sounds like you are covering the bases. Be sure and consider electric(lights,rotisserie, plugs, point of service hot water) water (sink) and gas (not sure if it would be propane) for the grill and sewer if you have a sink. Since you are at the beginning, you can get all that in for Sunny San Diego pizza later on. You wont even get a freeze, i bet.
I look forward to your thread and build.
Tracy

[1willisrobbins]

Re: BBQ Coach

if I may make a quick observation...possibly was mentioned but I didn't see it.

Do Not buy steel studs from Lowes or Home Depot. They are only 25 guage (too thin) and further more they are not galvanized so immediate rusting and deterioration will be a huge problem especially if they are load bearing. Find a building suply company or sheet metal supply company and order GALVANIZED 18 guage studs (for supporting anything more than 500lbs) and use exterior rated self tapping metal screws. I apprenticed a contractor building a metal framed barn many years back and learned it is vitally important to use galvanized studs if they will be exposed to any type of moisture ever. Reason is steel can expand upt to 8 times its size when rusted. That means blown seams and cracking walls.
As mentioned in above threads metal is really pretty easy to work with and has all sorts of advantages over wood.
Those renderings are really cool. Great idea and good luck building it...

[billwil]

Re: BBQ Coach

Just a quick update since I posted my plans here. I did source some steel track that curves, and found a few other ways to do this, but have, alas, changed my design for a couple of reasons. I've squared off the kitchen area mostly, putting the pizza oven at a 45 degree angle, and then extending. In addition to being easier to build, it gives us more room on the patio (very important in my mostly sloping backyard), doesn't require demo'ing part of the existing retaining wall, it gives us a lot more usable space on the counter top to put other things (sink, cooler), and just seems a lot more clean. I'll be incorporating a similar tight curve and angles on the sitting wall opposite the kitchen area (in fact, I've already poured the footers and first course for that wall). I'm liking this better and better. Not as curvy, but we have curves elsewhere and this is a lot more functional. I think I'll go with steel (galvanized) studs and cement board for the counter area. Thanks for all the help, and I'll start a kitchen thread soon...and then eventually a WFO build thread. I'm sore from all the work I'm doing...I'm considering it my daily workouts.

I've attached a new rendering to show what I mean. The Pizza oven won't look exactly like that...but gives you an idea.

Bill~

[Willie1970]

I am a steel framer and would like everyone to know that outdoor kitchens should not be constructed with 25 gauge interior steel as one of the members posted, Interior steel is designed to only support sheet rock in doors and it is why it is sold in the sheet rock department at Home Depot. If you are building anything outdoors the minimum gauge of steel to use is 20 gauge 33 mil. I have used BBQ Coach Frame kits and was very happy they use 18 gauge exterior steel. It was very strong and I could tell I was building something that would last. Also their online videos show the real way to frame with steel and not incorrect methods shown on the internet like using dog ears which is a big no no. I think that home owners with no training in steel framing should use a service like BBQ Coach that guides them to build things correctly. I also think that if time is important having all of the parts pre-cut and labeled and the pro panels sold by bbq coach is a big help. It saves a lot of time and hassle. Their stud chopper machine cuts all of the parts much more accurately than I could ever achieve with a chop saw. Wish everyone a great outdoor kitchen project!

[Yeager]

I am a steel framer and would like everyone to know that outdoor kitchens should not be constructed with 25 gauge interior steel as one of the members posted, Interior steel is designed to only support sheet rock in doors and it is why it is sold in the sheet rock department at Home Depot. If you are building anything outdoors the minimum gauge of steel to use is 20 gauge 33 mil. I have used BBQ Coach Frame kits and was very happy they use 18 gauge exterior steel. It was very strong and I could tell I was building something that would last. Also their online videos show the real way to frame with steel and not incorrect methods shown on the internet like using dog ears which is a big no no. I think that home owners with no training in steel framing should use a service like BBQ Coach that guides them to build things correctly. I also think that if time is important having all of the parts pre-cut and labeled and the pro panels sold by bbq coach is a big help. It saves a lot of time and hassle. Their stud chopper machine cuts all of the parts much more accurately than I could ever achieve with a chop saw. Wish everyone a great outdoor kitchen project!

Is this Willie the offical BBQCoach himself?

[deejayoh]

Actually - I was the one who posted that but it was a typo. I used 20 gauge exterior grade studs from a pro builder hardware. The ones Willie refers to from Home Depot are crazy thin. I will edit

[RandyJ]

I also used 18 gage . It is all very solid and would definitely recommend that. If you don't have snow maby you can do 20 gage but I think you would be best to go heavy er.

Randy

[deejayoh]

Mine has been standing for 4 years with 20 gauge, zero issues. (and I walk on top of the counters all the time!) Had I access to 18g at the time, I might have bought it - but in hindsight there doesn't seem to be any reason to have spent the extra money.

[Yeager]

Awesome! I am in process of designing/framing my surrounding countertops around my WFO. I went with 18 gauge and have about 25 linear feet of countertops to build. The 18 gauge 1 5/8" steel was about $350 - so not too bad! I'll likely spend about the same amount on durock! I now have two big decisions I need to make:

1) Which grill - I have narrowed it down to DCS, Blaze, and Lion. I really like the Blaze with the ceramic brickette's that are fastened in. The burners are pretty cool also.

2) Method for concrete countertop.
a) use 2x4's to create 1.5" overhand beyond durock and use 1x4's for sides creating a 2" thick countertop using regular high strength concrete

b) Leverage the forms on concretecountertopsolutions.com - the only problem is those only create a countertop that is 1 5/8" thick versus 2" which I planned. If I wanted to do a 12" overhang I believe a 2" thick with some thin steel would be better?

c) use option a, but insert 2" form liners on edge and textured mats on top. Then do some cool stains/sealers (going a little overboard here - but so has the rest of my project!)

Thoughts?

thanks,
Yeager

[deejayoh]

Awesome! I am in process of designing/framing my surrounding countertops around my WFO. I went with 18 gauge and have about 25 linear feet of countertops to build. The 18 gauge 1 5/8" steel was about $350 - so not too bad! I'll likely spend about the same amount on durock! I now have two big decisions I need to make:

1) Which grill - I have narrowed it down to DCS, Blaze, and Lion. I really like the Blaze with the ceramic brickette's that are fastened in. The burners are pretty cool also.

I went with an AOG grill. Has held up great outside for 4 years. No rust or any issues

2) Method for concrete countertop.
a) use 2x4's to create 1.5" overhand beyond durock and use 1x4's for sides creating a 2" thick countertop using regular high strength concrete

b) Leverage the forms on concretecountertopsolutions.com - the only problem is those only create a countertop that is 1 5/8" thick versus 2" which I planned. If I wanted to do a 12" overhang I believe a 2" thick with some thin steel would be better?

c) use option a, but insert 2" form liners on edge and textured mats on top. Then do some cool stains/sealers (going a little overboard here - but so has the rest of my project!)

Thoughts?

thanks,
Yeager

For the counters, I used Melamine shelving cut down to make the form. Gives you a nice smooth finish. You can rip to whatever thickness you like.

Are you casting in a form, or casting in place?

Either way, I recommend checking out the fiberglass mesh and fibers to prevent cracking.at directcolors.com. They also have all kinds of color choice.