new patio suggestions

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

Interesting Karen. I never considered staining the slab myself. Didn't know the acid coloring was available to the non-trained pro. Another decision to make...

The staining contractor that Ive been talking with has recently lost his pouring crew. So he's all apologetic and he's the one who quoted me the prices of $4 for coming in after the pour and staining it 30 days later.

He also made it very clear that who ever I got to pour the slab that it should make it a garage floor style finish with no fiberglass in the mix.

I hate the fact that my budget has me still looking for different flooring materials ever since April - when I started getting quotes. If my backyard was flat or near flat I would be in a better position. My yard slopes away and drops approx 2' in a 24' run. So I'm looking at building a retaining wall too.

Bummer. All this needs to be done before I can even start on the kitchen. I'm so impatient!

[Pannabecker]

Re: new patio suggestions

Mark,

I know what you mean about being impatient. I'm the same way. That's why I try to do everything myself, I can't stand waiting for people to show up. Unfortunately, I couldn't do the concrete patio myself either. I know nothing about grading and don't own the equipment. But now, here I am, 2 and a half months after the patio was poured and I have a pizza oven completed, the pergola built and my bbq pit just about done. I'm still working on the cupboards and building the forms for the countertop. It's hard not to become obsessed and stay awake at night planning it all.

Karen

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

You're an inspiration, Karen. The thought of being done 2 &1/2 months after the pour gives me the shivers!

Speaking of the retaining wall, one idea is to make it 2' higher at the far end of the patio and it will become a seating area. I like it.

[Pannabecker]

Re: new patio suggestions

Mark,
Don't be too impressed. I'm fortunate enough not to have to work outside the home, therefore, this is my fulltime job. Karen

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

Uno, stamping seems to be going for $10-12/sq ft depending on the stamp. And that varies a little bit from contractor to contractor. Staining is going for $4-6/sq ft after the pour. So, if I pay $4/sq ft for a garage floor style finished unstained pour. Then it will add an additional $4/sq ft for the staining guy to come back and do a basic stain. It goes up from there.

This is what I'm being told. Does this sound about right or high?

Uno, are you saying that the 1/2" rebar should be just under the kitchen area or should it run throughout the entire patio? From what I recall, when I watched my basement slab being poured, all they laid out for tensile strength was what I call hog wire. It comes in a roll and is made from approx 1/8" wire making 5" squares.

Did I say 1/2" ? Sorry.. 3/8" should be fine and I would do the whole patio.
Here is the thing with us on reinforcement in flat-work.

Just fiber= worthless
Wire Mesh + Fiber = a little better
3/8" Rebar on 18" centers = Very good
Rebar + Fiber = Excellent

Why rebar AND fiber well, the rebar is for internal cracking after the slab has set in the case of movement, ect. The fiber is for what is called plastic or shrinkage cracks that can appear as soon a few hours after the concrete is poured. We have recently started adding fiber to ALL our mixes. We have been experiencing plastic cracks at an increasing rate for years now..the only explanation is the mixes have changed and the inclusion of more chemicals has created this phenomena. The other important factor in keeping your slab together is where the control joints are we DO NOT make any section larger than 10 X 10 if the customer wants larger sections its time for the waver to be signed 10 x 10 is what we have come to over the years. If your contractor is not as concerned about the joints as he is about the reinforcement you might as well not put anything in the slab at all. That way when it cracks @12' it will be easier to take out...not wire or rebar

SORRY I forgot the comment on the prices. Yes that sound pretty reasonable compared to what we get and what others get out here but the best scale to use for comparison is 2 other contractors in YOUR area. This will give you a good picture what the market will bare. I don't know about other parts of the country but CA is SLOOOOOW for concrete now..very slow.

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

I never considered staining the slab myself. Didn't know the acid coloring was available to the non-trained pro.
>>>Staining is one of the FEW things I would recommend the homeowner could do in terms of concrete.

The staining contractor that Ive been talking with has recently lost his pouring crew. So he's all apologetic and he's the one who quoted me the prices of $4 for coming in after the pour and staining it 30 days later.
>>>Don't need a "crew" for a patio your size....

He also made it very clear that who ever I got to pour the slab that it should make it a garage floor style finish with no fiberglass in the mix.
>>>> WRONG ON THE FIBER and what is this garage style finish I keep hearing? is this another one of those TV Home show made up terms for the ACTUAL term of steel trowel finish or Hard Trowel finish which means very smooth???

I hate the fact that my budget has me still looking for different flooring materials ever since April - when I started getting quotes. If my backyard was flat or near flat I would be in a better position. My yard slopes away and drops approx 2' in a 24' run. So I'm looking at building a retaining wall too.
>>>>>Wall first patio second....

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

Everything you read tells you that an acid stain won't take very well on anything but a garage-finish floor. I asked my concrete contractor to do that for me so I could stain it and he went on and on about how slippery it would be.
>>>This is BAD information you have been reading. You can stain ANY finish of concrete and it will STAIN,not using enough stain, a good stain or not properly prepping the surface is more an issue than the finish. arrrrgh there is so much d*&$ misinformation out there and here I go again..MOST of it comes from the TV DIY shows..Ok I'm done.

A "hard trowel finish" (done right) with stain and sealer can be VERY,VERY slippery reaching past the point of cermic tile. Small glass beads can be added for slippage when the sealant is applied but in my opinion it is still very slippery.
If you have small kids FORGET IT or pad everything like the play-place at McDonald's till they get bigger.

Too bad Uno doesn't live nearby.
>>>Thanks. How far are you? work is pretty slow right now it might be worth the drive or flight would a bull-float be carry on or cargo?

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

Uno, great info. Thanks

The staining contractor recommended a garage floor finish to me (I'm guessing) because it looks better, or maybe the stain takes better to it compared to a broomed surface. Personally I would rather have a broomed finish because of the slip factor.

This same guy recommended against the fiber because it will have little hairs that stick up and affect the stain. I don't know if it hinders the staining process or the appearance afterward.

Thanks for your suggestion on the wall. That makes sense.

[Archena]

Re: new patio suggestions

Um, small kids or no a slippery surface under a cooking area is really unsafe. There are times in any kitchen when you have to move quickly - but especially so if you are pulling something out 90 seconds after it goes in and have ten more to do - you're bound to get going doing that. Accidents happen, stuff spills - tomato paste on a smooth surface is going to make for a wonderful Keystone Kops moment. It's the reason I'm leery of ceramic tile floors in kitchens (yes, I've seen people do this - marble being the only thing dumber). In an outdoor kitchen with an oven you're dealing with building and stoking fires - the potential for ER visits rises enormously (falling while you have a rake in the oven can't be good).

And then there's rain...


I've never seen an outdoor patio with a really smooth finish - and I really wouldn't want one. Of course, I'm a little biased - the last time I had a bad fall I ended up with $3000 in dental work...

[Acoma]

Re: new patio suggestions

2 cents. Definately avoid a sealant for outdoor patio floors with small children. I build a 12*25 patio, topped with flagstone, then sealed. When the patio was wet, my 2yr old daughter slipped and nearly cracked her head. This was a while ago, different home.
I also have slope issue, 10 feet by 60 feet that I am confronting. Just finished the wall, now I am filling dirt to level area. Next is Pizza courtyard.

[Archena]

Re: new patio suggestions

...

Too bad Uno doesn't live nearby.
>>>Thanks. How far are you? work is pretty slow right now it might be worth the drive or flight would a bull-float be carry on or cargo?

Carry on, definitely carry on...


I wanna be at the airport when you go through security...

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

I also have slope issue, 10 feet by 60 feet that I am confronting. Just finished the wall, now I am filling dirt to level area. Next is Pizza courtyard.

If you are speaking about filling in an area that will have concrete or pavers over it be sure to tamp this area down as you infill. a couple of inches of dirt some water to help it compact and a hand tamper or rent a vibra plate and do it all in one day. The weakest part of flat work (including pavers) will aways be the sub-straight-whats under it.

I promise you will not regret the extra time and effort to do this step.

Good luck

[Archena]

Re: new patio suggestions

Should you give it some time to see how it settles? The reason I ask is a fast food place was built not far from where I live on some less than wonderful property. They filled in one heck of a lot to cover the uneven (we're talking small valley) ground but within 2 months of completion the parking lot was suffering some serious upheaval (Alabama is not known for cold winters but that asphalt is definitely coming up - by 4 to 6 inches!) and shifting damage. I don't know about the building's foundation but given the extreme damage to the parking lot (you don't want to drive on that thing without a 4 wheel drive - and that's not much of an exaggeration) I'd bet the foundation suffered, too. That, and the building has stood empty for 4 years now with no buyer in sight.

Anyway, I wonder about that kind of thing having seen what a mess it can make when the ground isn't stable enough under it.

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

I havent gotten the patio poured yet but Im close.

Question about positioning posts for the overhead structure: Is there an anchor of some sort that I should have built into the new concrete to support the posts?

I intend to use big cedar posts. 4 of them. They may be random size/round or I may have the sawmill cut them 8x8.

How are posts typically anchored to an existing patio?

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

How are posts typically anchored to an existing patio?

You can have a bracket fabricated that can be embedded in the slab with the male end sticking up and have matching holes in the post. This way you will not see it.

Or you may be able to find a Simpson Simpson Strong-Tie: Helping to Build Stronger, Safer Structures product that will work for that size.