new patio suggestions

[Archena]

Re: new patio suggestions

Um, small kids or no a slippery surface under a cooking area is really unsafe. There are times in any kitchen when you have to move quickly - but especially so if you are pulling something out 90 seconds after it goes in and have ten more to do - you're bound to get going doing that. Accidents happen, stuff spills - tomato paste on a smooth surface is going to make for a wonderful Keystone Kops moment. It's the reason I'm leery of ceramic tile floors in kitchens (yes, I've seen people do this - marble being the only thing dumber). In an outdoor kitchen with an oven you're dealing with building and stoking fires - the potential for ER visits rises enormously (falling while you have a rake in the oven can't be good).

And then there's rain...


I've never seen an outdoor patio with a really smooth finish - and I really wouldn't want one. Of course, I'm a little biased - the last time I had a bad fall I ended up with $3000 in dental work...

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

Uno, great info. Thanks

The staining contractor recommended a garage floor finish to me (I'm guessing) because it looks better, or maybe the stain takes better to it compared to a broomed surface. Personally I would rather have a broomed finish because of the slip factor.

This same guy recommended against the fiber because it will have little hairs that stick up and affect the stain. I don't know if it hinders the staining process or the appearance afterward.

Thanks for your suggestion on the wall. That makes sense.

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

Everything you read tells you that an acid stain won't take very well on anything but a garage-finish floor. I asked my concrete contractor to do that for me so I could stain it and he went on and on about how slippery it would be.
>>>This is BAD information you have been reading. You can stain ANY finish of concrete and it will STAIN,not using enough stain, a good stain or not properly prepping the surface is more an issue than the finish. arrrrgh there is so much d*&$ misinformation out there and here I go again..MOST of it comes from the TV DIY shows..Ok I'm done.

A "hard trowel finish" (done right) with stain and sealer can be VERY,VERY slippery reaching past the point of cermic tile. Small glass beads can be added for slippage when the sealant is applied but in my opinion it is still very slippery.
If you have small kids FORGET IT or pad everything like the play-place at McDonald's till they get bigger.

Too bad Uno doesn't live nearby.
>>>Thanks. How far are you? work is pretty slow right now it might be worth the drive or flight would a bull-float be carry on or cargo?

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

I never considered staining the slab myself. Didn't know the acid coloring was available to the non-trained pro.
>>>Staining is one of the FEW things I would recommend the homeowner could do in terms of concrete.

The staining contractor that Ive been talking with has recently lost his pouring crew. So he's all apologetic and he's the one who quoted me the prices of $4 for coming in after the pour and staining it 30 days later.
>>>Don't need a "crew" for a patio your size....

He also made it very clear that who ever I got to pour the slab that it should make it a garage floor style finish with no fiberglass in the mix.
>>>> WRONG ON THE FIBER and what is this garage style finish I keep hearing? is this another one of those TV Home show made up terms for the ACTUAL term of steel trowel finish or Hard Trowel finish which means very smooth???

I hate the fact that my budget has me still looking for different flooring materials ever since April - when I started getting quotes. If my backyard was flat or near flat I would be in a better position. My yard slopes away and drops approx 2' in a 24' run. So I'm looking at building a retaining wall too.
>>>>>Wall first patio second....

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

Uno, stamping seems to be going for $10-12/sq ft depending on the stamp. And that varies a little bit from contractor to contractor. Staining is going for $4-6/sq ft after the pour. So, if I pay $4/sq ft for a garage floor style finished unstained pour. Then it will add an additional $4/sq ft for the staining guy to come back and do a basic stain. It goes up from there.

This is what I'm being told. Does this sound about right or high?

Uno, are you saying that the 1/2" rebar should be just under the kitchen area or should it run throughout the entire patio? From what I recall, when I watched my basement slab being poured, all they laid out for tensile strength was what I call hog wire. It comes in a roll and is made from approx 1/8" wire making 5" squares.

Did I say 1/2" ? Sorry.. 3/8" should be fine and I would do the whole patio.
Here is the thing with us on reinforcement in flat-work.

Just fiber= worthless
Wire Mesh + Fiber = a little better
3/8" Rebar on 18" centers = Very good
Rebar + Fiber = Excellent

Why rebar AND fiber well, the rebar is for internal cracking after the slab has set in the case of movement, ect. The fiber is for what is called plastic or shrinkage cracks that can appear as soon a few hours after the concrete is poured. We have recently started adding fiber to ALL our mixes. We have been experiencing plastic cracks at an increasing rate for years now..the only explanation is the mixes have changed and the inclusion of more chemicals has created this phenomena. The other important factor in keeping your slab together is where the control joints are we DO NOT make any section larger than 10 X 10 if the customer wants larger sections its time for the waver to be signed 10 x 10 is what we have come to over the years. If your contractor is not as concerned about the joints as he is about the reinforcement you might as well not put anything in the slab at all. That way when it cracks @12' it will be easier to take out...not wire or rebar

SORRY I forgot the comment on the prices. Yes that sound pretty reasonable compared to what we get and what others get out here but the best scale to use for comparison is 2 other contractors in YOUR area. This will give you a good picture what the market will bare. I don't know about other parts of the country but CA is SLOOOOOW for concrete now..very slow.

[Pannabecker]

Re: new patio suggestions

Mark,
Don't be too impressed. I'm fortunate enough not to have to work outside the home, therefore, this is my fulltime job. Karen

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

You're an inspiration, Karen. The thought of being done 2 &1/2 months after the pour gives me the shivers!

Speaking of the retaining wall, one idea is to make it 2' higher at the far end of the patio and it will become a seating area. I like it.

[Pannabecker]

Re: new patio suggestions

Mark,

I know what you mean about being impatient. I'm the same way. That's why I try to do everything myself, I can't stand waiting for people to show up. Unfortunately, I couldn't do the concrete patio myself either. I know nothing about grading and don't own the equipment. But now, here I am, 2 and a half months after the patio was poured and I have a pizza oven completed, the pergola built and my bbq pit just about done. I'm still working on the cupboards and building the forms for the countertop. It's hard not to become obsessed and stay awake at night planning it all.

Karen

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

Interesting Karen. I never considered staining the slab myself. Didn't know the acid coloring was available to the non-trained pro. Another decision to make...

The staining contractor that Ive been talking with has recently lost his pouring crew. So he's all apologetic and he's the one who quoted me the prices of $4 for coming in after the pour and staining it 30 days later.

He also made it very clear that who ever I got to pour the slab that it should make it a garage floor style finish with no fiberglass in the mix.

I hate the fact that my budget has me still looking for different flooring materials ever since April - when I started getting quotes. If my backyard was flat or near flat I would be in a better position. My yard slopes away and drops approx 2' in a 24' run. So I'm looking at building a retaining wall too.

Bummer. All this needs to be done before I can even start on the kitchen. I'm so impatient!

[Pannabecker]

Re: new patio suggestions

Everything you read tells you that an acid stain won't take very well on anything but a garage-finish floor. I asked my concrete contractor to do that for me so I could stain it and he went on and on about how slippery it would be. He told me he would do a very light broom finish and not expose much sand. To be honest, I don't think he was capable of doing a garage-finish. Even his broom finish is not good. I would never recommend this guy. Lots of low spots. Too bad Uno doesn't live nearby. That said, I have stained my sidewalks and they took the stain just great. I'm doing my own staining because I'm not having a pattern done and just want a mottled, more rustic look. I've done it before on my inside kitchen countertops I made and loved it. It's not hard to do if you like a marble-like uneven finish. I'm using two colors. The first time I used Kemiko brand stain and was very happy with it. This time I got stain from Direct Colors and it seems like I have to use more stain. Of course, I can't really compare the 2 because the countertops were indoors in controlled heat and my patio is out in the very hot sun and the stain dries way too quickly. Also it's two different finishes and mixes of concrete.

Good luck. Karen

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

Uno, stamping seems to be going for $10-12/sq ft depending on the stamp. And that varies a little bit from contractor to contractor. Staining is going for $4-6/sq ft after the pour. So, if I pay $4/sq ft for a garage floor style finished unstained pour. Then it will add an additional $4/sq ft for the staining guy to come back and do a basic stain. It goes up from there.

This is what I'm being told. Does this sound about right or high?

Uno, are you saying that the 1/2" rebar should be just under the kitchen area or should it run throughout the entire patio? From what I recall, when I watched my basement slab being poured, all they laid out for tensile strength was what I call hog wire. It comes in a roll and is made from approx 1/8" wire making 5" squares.

[Unofornaio]

Re: new patio suggestions

With a new patio slab @ 4" thick with 1/2" rebar you should be just fine for the weight. There is no reason to use 6" block either they make 4" that will work very nice for the base of the cabinets and counter top. These will give you more usable space inside also.
I don't recall if you mentioned footings for the oven or not but this is a given.

If you are going to be really concerned about the weight regardless of who tells you what you can always have the concrete contractor make some "mini" footings in this area of concern. Roughly 6" deep total any more than that is a waste.. So the layout of the "mini" footings would be like tracing the outline of where the cabinets would be.
I'm interested in hearing the prices back there for stamp and also staining if you don't mind posting it I would appreciate it.

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

Bacon, it sounds like you have footers for your counters. Thats what Im talkin about! You're setup is done very nice and simple yet elegant and functional. Did you have a contractor design it and build it all, or did you do some or all of it yourself?

[BaconGrease]

Re: new patio suggestions

In our outdoor kitchen the concrete block is actually 2 feet below ground on all the structures, having said that the patio itself is blue stone over leveled and tamped ground not a cement slab.

[Brauma]

Re: new patio suggestions

Mark, You mentioned you don't know whether you're going to build your kitchen out of concrete block or wood yet and I'm wondering if you're going to decide this before your concrete is poured. If you're using the block you may need the patio to be thicker there, depending on the weight. Unofornaio could tell you this. I ended up building mine out of wood because my patio is 40 X 30 and I had to cut costs somewhere. I already had so many areas that had to be much thicker because of my oven, bbq and hot tub. It all adds up quick. Concrete isn't as cheap as I thought. I just had a light broom finish and I'm acid staining and sealing it. Karen

Karen, I may PM you and ask about your concrete and staining contractor and price per sq ft for staining if thats not prying too much. Let me know. Since we're both in VA I'm thinking the prices shouldn't be too far apart.

I may very well go with staining because of price. I would love to have the whole patio done in pavers but thats not in my budget.

I'm 99% sure that I'll get a mason in my church to help me and build the islands with cinderblock. I asked both concrete contractors about a footer for my islands because of the weight. They mentioned 3500 psi concrete and that I wouldn't need them. I really don't want to get 5 years down the road and see the counters and counter tops crack due to settling.