Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

[Wiley]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Keith, One description you gave early on has got me wondering, "she has painted press-board siding and says that pin-head sized black marks appear on the paint,". By any chance does she have LP siding? LP (Louisiana Pacific) made siding years ago that was or became the object of a class action suit and became a major recall. Just Google LP siding and you will find hours of reading. I would suspect that is a more likely cause than your WFO.

I posted my pictures because the impression that our WFOs are without pollution fallout was being created (at least IMHO) and my personal evidence suggested they are not so virginal.

Regarding the neighbor, you describe "her" rather than "her and her husband". By any chance is she an aged widow? If so put yourself in her shoes for a moment, the economy sucks, her income has probably decreased, Social Security has for the second year not given a COLA and everything seems more expensive. Add to that she is alone. Her biggest asset has diminished in value due to the housing market collapse and she now notices these spots. The notice of which happened to coincide with your new WFO. She is fearful she will have to do major repairs she cannot afford. Add to that the paranoia that often comes with age and you have a recipe for alot of sleepless worry filled nights for her. We as Americans seem to like the "going to war" option. Road rage, get a lawyer and sue etc. etc. It's both of your neighborhood and like it or not until one of you dies or moves you are going to be neighbors. Why not try a different tack?

Were I in your shoes (which is most unlikely as I refuse to live in a city) I think I would get myself up to speed regarding the siding issues as LP isn't the only manufacturer having problems with their products. Print out a few pages with relevant info. Bake a loaf of bread in your indoor oven and pay a neighborly call on her. Say something like "We have gotten off on the wrong foot on this and I would like us to be friends rather than not. There is something going on with your siding and I would like to help you get to the bottom of it. Here is some info that might be of interest and a loaf of my homemade bread. If you feel inclined please read this and if you want perhaps over a cup of tea we can discuss what we can do. But enjoy the bread." Then leave, let her digest the info and the bread. If she has kids she most likely they will get to see the info and can see you aren't some ogre. Least ways she will have an option that is more viable than getting a lawyer. Regardless if you are technically, legally in the right the end result is possibly a whole lot cheaper than lawyers and going to court and a whole lot better mental health for you and her and the neighborhood.

From what little I read on the siding issues there are forms and inspections and time limits. Help her thru the tangle. She may simply be out of luck with regard to the siding but you won't be the object of her scorn and her litigation. And she won't be calling the air pollution control people every time you fire up.

Of course I could be wrong, she may be the bully, the bitter, sharp elbowed spinster on the Metro, in which case I have little suggestion.

Like I said I refuse to live in a city, too many people!
Good Luck!
Wiley

[brickie in oz]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Good Luck
Bruce

Looks like you are in the clear.

Soooo, keep on cookin them pizzas

[brokencookie]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Kewbi
We live in WASHINGTON---fungus and mold are not optional. I think your neighbor is just trying to find a way to make you pay for her problem. Before you accept all of the blame you need to look at other item that could impact her house.

Are there any working wood fired or coal fired chimneys in your neighborhood ? Anyone one of these could "cause" the problem. It might not just be you.

Does anyone in the area barbeque ? You can't be the only one who wants to enjoy flame broiled foods.

Here is what the Washingtion State Code says ( abreviated as WAC codes, and many of them are wacked)

WAC 173-433-110 No agency filings affecting this section since 2003
Opacity standards.
(1) A person shall not cause or allow emission of a smoke plume from any solid fuel burning device to exceed an average of twenty percent opacity for six consecutive minutes in any one-hour period.

(2) Statewide opacity standard. An authority shall not adopt or enforce an opacity level for solid fuel burning devices that is more stringent than the statewide standard.

(3) Test method and procedures. Methods and procedures specified by the EPA in "40 CFR 60 Appendix A reference method 9 - VISUAL DETERMINATION OF THE OPACITY OF EMISSIONS FROM STATIONARY SOURCES" as amended through July 1, 1990, shall be used to determine compliance with subsection (1) of this section.

(4) Enforcement. Smoke visible from a chimney, flue or exhaust duct in excess of the opacity standard shall constitute prima facie evidence of unlawful operation of an applicable solid fuel burning device. This presumption may be refuted by demonstration that the smoke was not caused by an applicable solid fuel burning device. The provisions of this requirement shall:

(a) Be enforceable on a complaint basis.

(b) Not apply during the starting of a new fire for a period not to exceed twenty minutes in any four-hour period.

(5) Education. Any person or retailer providing information on the operation of solid fuel burning devices, such as brochures, demonstrations, and public education programs, should include information that opacity levels of ten percent or less are attainable through proper operation.



Here is the way I interpret the WAC code

#1. Your pizza oven burns so much more cleanly than a standard fireplace that you should have no problem with the opacity requirement.

#2. Section 4b clearly states that there is an except during start up. All pizza ovens smoke a little at start up. But you can let it smoke like a giant cigar for 20 minutes in every 4 hours. In addition, it can exceed opacity requirements for 6 minutes every hour.

Unless you are using green wood, dead squirrels and wet newspapers, your oven should have no problem meeting the "legal requirements".

#3. This is a state wide code and cannot be superceded by local regulations that are more stringent. This is the most restrictive standard allowable in the state.

Don't let your neighbor bully you. Make her prove that it is your oven that is causing the problem. It is actually much harder than you think it is to prove you are the souce.

Good Luck
Bruce

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Great, so there actually are little black spots of stuff settling from your chimney on a nearby surface. I'm not specifically surprised, but it doesn't help me that chimneys actually do produce this kind of stuff...her claims are wide and varying: that the marks are soot and not mold, that the marks burn through the paint, that the resulting hole lets moisture through, that soot settles on the roof and washes down the side of the house when it rains.........some of these claims might be true, others not.

...and while her greater concern is the long term damage of these supposed holes (caused by impossible burns), I suppose a judge could also order me clean her house even if I'm not actually damaging the paint in any burn-related manner.

...but the spots appear on all sides of her house including wind-leeward and walls off to the side of the wind-path...I dunno, thanks for the info though.

[Wiley]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Here's a suggestion that perhaps might be of value to you: build a small permanent stand near the fence line with the bothersome neighbor and facing your WFO. Before each firing tape a sheet of new clean paper (standard 8 1/2 by 11 printer paper) to the stand. Date the sheet and photograph it before firing. Then after firing again photo the sheet and spray the surface of the sheet with artists fixative. Punch holes in the sheet and start a binder of the sheets.

This is what we did when we fought PG&E over their pollution from their cleaning the chimneys at their Moss Landing, Ca. power plant. The short story is they were forced by the Gov't to burn crude oil in furnaces with chinmeys designed to burn natural gas. As a consequence they had to clean or "vent" the chinmeys often to keep them free of soot. The recorded pollution data was quite valuable in getting compensation from PG&E (although it has been years since I lived on my boat at the marina there). Obviously in this case you are endeavouring to prove the lack of pollution from your WFO.

I would also suggest civility in dealings with this neighbor. A cool head and polite manner might help defuse a situation which unfortunately might come before a magistrate. And should the situation come before a judge let the neighbor appear to be the hot-headed crazy one. Beware unintended consequences, as a contrary judgment might be hard to undo, and expensive.

Note also: this could backfire as here is a photograph of the awning I recently took down from my patio area. These are not burns but rather soot. And this represents quite a few firings and, I suspect, at a much closer distance than your neighbors yard. But it does show our (or at least my WFO) is not particulate pollution free.

I am sure glad I live in a rural area, with neighbors a goodly distance away who also have WFOs and like me, heat their homes with wood.

Hope this helps,
Wiley

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Here's another thing you can take away from this forum- nobody.. NOBODY has ever had this happen before! If you are indeed logical, what are the chances you're the only person that this has ever happened to? As a contractor myself, it doesn't look like soot damage. Again, logically, it would happen on the side hit by the prevalent winds the most, and be minimal on the lee-side (sp?). Her explanation doesn't hold up to logical thinking.

Well I certainly agree and have made the wind-related argument myself. In fact, based on some of the particular locations she has pointed to I am virtually certain I'm not responsible or every spot and if they are all of the same cause, then I would necessarily not be responsible for any of them, but that kind of argument gets a little lost in the details -- I just don't think it's a "legally binding" either (a judge might think it "makes sense" but might act in a "let's be sure" manner), whereas as getting it professionally analyzed would make me feel a lot better in court...........which is hard since there's nothing on her house to currently analyze (well five spots maybe).

I'm feeling better and better about the prospect of talking to some pros in various fields (fire, paint, mold) tomorrow when businesses open and getting some assessments or opinions stated in writing.

[splatgirl]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Ohmy do I hear you about the illogical crazy-assedness. I just don't have the skill set to deal with those kinds of people. Fortunately for you, it seems like you've got a problem that can be explained with science...if she will allow it.

As you've said, she is going to believe whatever she wants to believe so at this point I suspect the only way there will be any kind of resolution is if some flavor of higher power shuts her down. Let her draft her "legal letter" or whatever she thinks she's doing. It's very likely her first step towards defeat.
I'm 100% for working to keep peace with the neighbors, but bring it on is right. You've offered the solution...testing and expert opinion. Her choosing to disregard that reflects HER unwillingness to keep the peace. She needs to meet you halfway.
Until and unless she wants to cooperate in finding an actual explanation for what is happening vs. her speculation and random blame (I suspect testing and a scientific explanation would be the first step in any potential litigation), then I say you live your life with your oven however you normally would, ignore her and continue to offer up the solution of finding the factual, verifiable source of her problem anytime she chooses to press the issue.
You're not the one being the difficult here.

[Tman1]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Here's another thing you can take away from this forum- nobody.. NOBODY has ever had this happen before! If you are indeed logical, what are the chances you're the only person that this has ever happened to? As a contractor myself, it doesn't look like soot damage. Again, logically, it would happen on the side hit by the prevalent winds the most, and be minimal on the lee-side (sp?). Her explanation doesn't hold up to logical thinking.

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Thanks guys. As I keep explaining to my gung-ho wife, one of the biggest problems is there is very little to analyze. At the moment, there aren't many spots on the house, which makes it difficult to get any kind of analysis even if I ask someone to come look...but at any rate...it's the right course of action one way or another...

...but ultimately I agree in the assessment and so does everyone I talk to as far as I can tell. Bottom line, she's genuinely nuts on some level. I admit I can be argumentative, but as a personality I consider myself unfailingly logical, almost Spock-like. It's the illogical components of her behavior that I find the most distressing. I don't fault her for being upset, I fault her for refusing to help me determine objectively what's going on.

Whatever, I'm just venting at this point.

I'll call some some various businesses on Monday. I think I'll feel a lot better after I talk to some pros because I can literally "quote" them if it comes down to it, but I do appreciate the FB opinions too. Such consensus strengthens my resolve.

Cheers!

[RTflorida]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

MOLD!!! I have very very similar spots on a cedar shed and cedar tiki bar that have not been restained in over 2 yrs. Wood products CAN AND WILL get mold in a humid rainy climate.

Keith, you mention she plans to call the fire dept if you light it up. As long as your oven is within your local regulations, the fire dept is only going to ask if the next pie is theirs to take back to the station.
Personally, I usually don;t take the high road, in your case I would get all of the physical evidense possible and try to get a paint expert, mold remediation, fireplace builder, and a general home inspector to all take a look....in her presence, and submit a report to each of you. It is a damn shame that you may br out a few hundred $$$ for something that is not you fault. Fight it, fight it, fight it.......next firing should be mid afternoon Sunday......invite the old bag over for pizza.


RT

[Grimaldi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Painted over mold that is eating back through the paint is what it looks like to me.

It has nothing to do with you, and if it was me, I would be firing that oven up and let her make her move.

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Previous post con't

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Well, I admit, it is difficult to present good photos because she has cleaned most of them up. I found a few. Those that are most indicative of the more common pattern she is concerned about are very nearly perfectly circular, often with a smeared "wick" mark around them. Some physically stick up and some are perfectly flush.

Her claim is that they burn through the paint, form a hole, then moisture enters the hole and destroys the pressed panel siding underneath.

[Photos con't in next post]

[Grimaldi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Sounds like a cover-up to me...I'm with your wife, bring it on! I suspect she knows what is wrong with her house, but in some twisted way thinks she can blame it on you.

Let's see the pics you managed to get...if you were able get any.

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Just had another show down with her. I was taking pictures of the spots (look forward to followups in this thread ) and she said she wouldn't have any of it. She's decided what it is and is drafting some sort of legal letter, I'm not sure what you meant by that.

At any rate, the paint guys at Home Depot thought it sounded like mold. I'm going to call some fireplace professionals, house painters, and mold removers on Monday when all the businesses open.

It will be hard to get it analyzed, she's cleaned it all up. One concern I have is that it as a mold/mildew/fungus, it may taper off as the weather gets colder but she would attribute it to my not using the oven...but it's hard for me to simply go ahead and use the oven because she has just about lost all her marbles at this point and I'm just not up to that kind of confrontation.

My wife says, bring it on.

Hopefully I'll have a better notion of things on Monday, but it will be difficult to get anything analyzed due to a lack of evidence now that she cleaned it all up. I understand that the burden of proof is on her and that therefore a lack of evidence or analysis thereof is not specifically my problem...but I still don't feel good about not having a definitive answer to all of this.

Thanks guys.