Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

[brickie in oz]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

I feel so bad for you not being able to enjoy your oven that you have built with love and patience..

Your fire chiefs seem to sold some sway, over here they would be told to go jump in no uncertain circumstances, unless of course if it was a total fire ban day.

[Grimaldi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Use your driest wood and build a fire...it's time to rodeo. This gal is pushing this issue to its conclusion.

I would assume your oven burns like a furnace after start up and all that will be visible to the Fire Chief will be waves of heat...just what you want them to see.

I would also take him aside and explain that the woman has mold issues and is trying to do everything in her power to deny it, including refusing to test.

When you are in the right, you fight.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

I do it every time I use the oven, there is always still some fire going when I door it off.

[Wiley]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Keith, I would suggest a CO2 fire extinguisher. They aren't cheap but a whole lot safer and easier to clean up should the need arise. I have a fairly large one I keep in case of a chimney fire (I heat with wood you may remember, and although I keep my chimney clean I believe in back up systems).

In the actual case of trying to put out a roaring WFO I would activate the extinguisher at least a foot from the entrance. As the temp of the exiting CO2 will less likely damage the bricks from that distance. If nothing else the fire guys will be pleased that you have a credible method of extinguishing the fire.

Hope this helps,
Wiley

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

If I may geek out briefly, assuming a relatively good seal around the door, there would be little matter-transfer, so any pressure change would be the result of temperature changes, not actual matter influx or outflux. If it continued to heat up, the pressure would go up. If it started to cool down, the pressure would drop (not to be confused with a vacuum, which is not merely a lack of pressure but a lack of matter).

I think you and Tscar are basically right. The temperature would begin to drop, thus the gases in the oven (mostly hot air) would loss their pressure as exerted against the walls and door, thus the exterior pressure would in fact "push" the door onto the oven more aggressively than in an equalized scenario.

Okay, that makes sense to me.

Thanks.

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Nope... if anything it will create a vacuum.

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Thanks. Just to verify, you don't see any danger in closing up a fire behind a door? I have in my mind some fictional scenario wherein there is a pressure build up and the door is blown off like a cannon. Am I being ridiculous?

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

I had a thought and you may want to call these people and see if this item could work on the WFO. I was thinking that if you (if possible) could add a catalytic converter to your chimney. It would arrest all sparks and reduce the smoke from the chimney. It also burns the smoke a second time.
Catalytic Add-On Stove Damper

I know it works great for wood stoves but not sure about a lighter draft such as on a WFO

Just a thought.

[splatgirl]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

FWIW, I have firefighters in my family...
Hot embers? I assume you have a spark arresting cap on your chimney. If so, the "hot embers" complaint is basically null and I presume the fire department will agree. As far as health or fire hazard goes, again I'm not seeing how they could possibly logically construe your WFO as either of those things given that it is cleaner burning and safer to operate than a common fireplace. Again, I presume you've complied with local building code. Beyond that, the fire marshalls business is safety. If there is not a valid safety risk, then you have nothing to worry about regardless of what your crazy neighbor says. I actually think it's hilarious that they told her to call 911. She's already begun to use the rope to hang herself!
Maybe this will be a good thing. I have no doubt you are the more rational side of the argument. Approach the impending visit with the sound belief that you have done nothing wrong and continue to be rational and cooperative and just see what happens. Heck, they'd probably love to see your WFO in action...firefighters do love them some fire! Plus then you have the opportunity to demonstrate that there isn't really ANY smoke after the fire gets going. And to feed them. Firefighters love to eat as much as they love fire.

Putting a/the door on your oven will extinguish a fire lickety split.

I hear you on getting the fun taken out if it. Take a deep breath. It will work itself out and you'll have your WFO mojo back eventually.

[RTflorida]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Keith, I have to say - you are a more patient and better man than I am. I am pretty sure I would be resorting to something very stupid and not so neighborly at this point.

You wouldn't happen to know someone, who knows someone, who knows a couple of guys named Vinny and Guido who could "take care of things" (for the cost of a few pizzas, of course)?

RT

[Tscarborough]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

I would force the issue with a fire. Make sure it is a big one, but also make sure it is very dry and is done smoking ASAP. Then when they show up you can show them the actuality of the situation. To put the fire out to their satisfaction, just put the door on it, and show them how it will soon smother, and that no smoke can escape.

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Well, got a phone call from the fire marshal today notifying me of a complaint about hot embers landing my neighbor's house (sheeeeeeeeeeeesh!). Obviously, over the phone, they cannot determine the validity or insanity of my neighbor's complaint. So they were calling me simply to notify me of the complaint. At this point, there's nothing to do but fire it up and see what happens. He told me that his advice to her was to call 911 if they will respond on a per-incident basis. So, maybe they'll come out and take a look at my oven.

He emphasized to me my greatest concern which is that it doesn't really matter if I'm within the EPA emissions restrictions. They can halt a fire on rather vague "fire hazard" or even "health hazard" grounds as they see fit.

One of my fears now is, how do I technically comply with a demand to put out a fire. I don't think they will accept merely not adding more wood to the fire since it would take 30-45 minutes for a roaring blaze to die down. If they flood my oven with a fire hose, I imagine it would probably destroy my oven, in as much as the insulation boards under the floor would be significantly more soaked than they ever experienced in light rains during construction. I just don't know how I would comply with such a demand without basically destroying the oven by flooding it.

So, we'll just have to fire it up and see what happens.

This has royally taken the fun out of my oven of course. Even if I use it, from now on it will just be a reminder of my insane neighbor and her litigious threats and harassment.

...all because she's too stupid to tell the difference between mold and ash and too stubborn to get it professionally analyzed. Burden of proof really isn't the issue since the whole "vague health hazard" angle nullifies all rational discourse on the subject.

I'll keep your guys apprised.

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Have you spoken to her about taking samples and getting them analyzed? I am willing to guess she will not allow you to do that. But its a question that you should ask.

Yes, and yes she refused.

She has already advised you she will call the fire department. Well if the fire department show up they are going to ask her to see what the damage is that is being caused. I am sure the fire department knows the difference between mold and ash burns.

The damage (evidence) is gone since she already scraped off and painted over the mold spots. If they reappeared within a few minutes of me firing the oven such that there was anything for the fire dept to analyze, then even I would be suspicious that I'm the cause...'course I doubt that would happen. She would just call to "have me stopped", which you can sort of do. The fire dept can point out that I'm within code, but complaints of a "it bothers me" nature are in fact somewhat valid and far more difficult to fight, and complaints of a "it exacerbates my asthma" nature are deal-killers: they supercede codes which otherwise permit a certain level of emission...which kinda sucks: It gives a lot of power to the complainer. All of this directly from a representative of the fire dept when I spoke with him this week...or course her boyfriend smokes like a chimney (hey, a pun!) so it would be total B.S. if she ever played that card.

Not to sure about the laws in your state but have you maybe considered talking to the council/local government about codes on wood fire ovens and maybe even acceptable materials for siding? Maybe her house siding isnt to code.

I don't know about her siding, but I have the Washington codes on chimney emissions, namely on the fraction of an hour that can be spent spewing black smoke (the rules are more forgiving at startup of course).

As of yesterday, I had dropped a letter in her mailbox summarizing my research of the preceding days into the likelihood of her claim and the likelihood of unconsidered alternative explanations (mold). I don't think I'll have time to fire up the oven this weekend, so it'll be a while before anything else happens on this issue...I think.

Nevertheless, Thanksgiving if a target for me. Family's flying out, plan is to put the bird in there.

Cheers!

[ikhan42]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Hi,

Have you spoken to her about taking samples and getting them analyzed? I am willing to guess she will not allow you to do that. But its a question that you should ask.

I believe that if she refuses you to take a sample then you can go ahead and start the oven up as you have made an attempt to get the spots analyzed and she refused.

Also if she refuses you getting the spot analyzed then why not play her at her own game.

She has already advised you she will call the fire department. Well if the fire department show up they are going to ask her to see what the damage is that is being caused. I am sure the fire department knows the difference between mold and ash burns. If you see fire trucks at your neighbours you will know fairly quickly is your oven is the problem and then you can get a fireplace/chimney guy to come and work out a way to do the water thing that was mentioned.

Not to sure about the laws in your state but have you maybe considered talking to the council/local government about codes on wood fire ovens and maybe even acceptable materials for siding? Maybe her house siding isnt to code.

Anyways my 10cents worth

ikhan42

[kebwi]

Re: Neighbor is complaining about soot damage

Keith, One description you gave early on has got me wondering, "she has painted press-board siding and says that pin-head sized black marks appear on the paint,". By any chance does she have LP siding? LP (Louisiana Pacific) made siding years ago that was or became the object of a class action suit and became a major recall. Just Google LP siding and you will find hours of reading. I would suspect that is a more likely cause than your WFO.

I will take it under advisement. She is quite beyond any rational discourse at this point. If I ask her about her siding she will immediately deflect and will probably refuse to answer the question.

I posted my pictures because the impression that our WFOs are without pollution fallout was being created (at least IMHO) and my personal evidence suggested they are not so virginal.

Thank you for the clarification.

Regarding the neighbor, you describe "her" rather than "her and her husband". By any chance is she an aged widow?

No. She has a partner. I guess they aren't strictly speaking married, but they've been together for years. We didn't even know they weren't married. The house is hers however. Furthermore, I refer to her in the singular in this discussion not only because she's the only one giving me a hard time and because the house is legally in her name, but because her "husband" is downright embarrassed about the whole thing and is desperately trying to keep the peace (which I want to do as well, I'm being as polite as I can with her...aka kind of a sucker).

If so put yourself in her shoes for a moment, the economy sucks, her income has probably decreased, Social Security has for the second year not given a COLA and everything seems more expensive. Add to that she is alone. Her biggest asset has diminished in value due to the housing market collapse and she now notices these spots. The notice of which happened to coincide with your new WFO. She is fearful she will have to do major repairs she cannot afford.

Despite her not being an elderly widow, your point is still valid. I am entirely sympathetic to her situation. She's trying to take care of her house and is concerned she had discovered a new and to-be-recurrent problem. I perfectly understand that. She's still very threatening and irrational however. My sympathy with her only extends as far as it permits me to live my life in a legal and private manner. I genuinely want to help her. In my opinion, she's hurting herself by not considering mold since it must be fought in a very different way than ash or other dirt. She isn't cleaning with bleach, she isn't properly killing it, she's ruining her own house. I would love to help her, but there are limits to my ability to get through to her.

From what little I read on the siding issues there are forms and inspections and time limits. Help her thru the tangle. She may simply be out of luck with regard to the siding but you won't be the object of her scorn and her litigation. And she won't be calling the air pollution control people every time you fire up.

I'll look into it.

Cheers!