Dough Not Rising with Caputo "Classica"

[jonv]

Definitely got some air in it now

I guess the verdict is that the high temperatures of either the water or proving place were killing the yeast... Low and slow makes the tastiest bread imo

[cleverdick]

Well, it seems I've made some progress with this flour - having opted for an overnight prove at just above room temperature, in an enclosed space. Just for completeness, the water was Acqua Panna out of a glass bottle. I formed the doughballs the next morning, then cooked late that evening. So total resting time was about 20 hours. I did reduce the salt to 15g as recommended (but definitely would not want to go lower than this). This is a general-purpose flour, but in terms of workability and taste did not seem different from their "Pizza Chef" type.

[jonv]

I use instant dried yeast when I'm not making sourdough. I have always found it convenient and repeatable but I'm curious about the improvement in taste you report with active dried yeast. I can't think why there should be a noticeable difference unless the process is also quite different.

Regardless of the yeast, it should not take five hours in an airing cupboard with the amount of yeast in your formula. I find that the initial proving takes 2 to 3 hours for me at a cool room temperature and I start with cold water.

[SableSprings]

Thanks for the yeast acronym correction deejayoh ... too many home projects and I got my IDY and DIY mixed up

I use lesaffre SAF-Instant Red Dry Yeast ...I'm also going back and correct my DIY error in the posts above.

[deejayoh]

40c is waaaay too hot for proofing, in my experience! You probably killed the yeast.



And just so we don't confuse people in the future

IDY = Instant Dry Yeast
ADY = Active Dry Yeast
DIY = Do it Yourself!

[cleverdick]

SableSprings,

Good thinking re. the oven temps cycling. But you know, I only started doing it this way to get controlled, consistent results, and up until now I seem to have got away with it.

As you may or may not know, in the UK many homes have what is called an "airing cupboard". This is basically a small closet containing a large, dome-topped copper hot water tank, above which are normally wooden slatted shelves for storing things like towels etc. This would seem like a good place for dough proving. However, I found that that here, the proving process could take anything from 2 - 5 hours (and I didn't always have 5 hours to spare).

Also, I switched from instant dried yeast (in a sachet) to dried active yeast - and was very pleased with the improvement in taste. So going back to instant would be a retrograde step for me.

I have also experimented with higher hydration by the way, but above 65% had problems with sticking [to the cooking floor].

I will tweak the temps and formula and report back

Rich

[JRPizza]

Here is a link to the Caputo site that has products pages and spec sheets for some of their more common flours. I ran across this looking at their gluten free flour and thought it was kind of interesting.

[SableSprings]

Thanks for posting your pizza dough formula & method. As jonv stated (#10 above), your formula is using over 1/3 more than the recommended salt range for dough (you are over 3.3% salt by bakers percentage in your formula). Here's a nice summary of salt facts and bread dough.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html

As noted in this article, the UK has reduced the salt levels recommended for breads.

https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/...-much-and-why/

In general, many bakers have switched from active dried yeast to instant dried (IDY) because the IDY can be added directly to the dough mix without first being hydrated. Here's another good synopsis of the difference. I've been using IDY for over eight years now and I can't imagine going back to any of the other types. Just a thought to cut down on another prep step...

http://www.thekitchn.com/whats-the-d...nt-yeast-54252

Also, just a note about electric ovens and coil spring thermometers. Your oven will cycle to maintain an average temperature. That means it will normally overheat before the oven thermostat shuts off the element...which then remains hot while the metal element cools down. So, the average looks good but if you had a digital/instant readout of the oven chamber you'd find many hot spots and a fairly "ragged" temperature profile with lots of heat spikes. Coil spring thermometers are notoriously poor at giving accurate temps. Obviously some are better than others, but they really all are giving you more of a general idea of the temperature rather than the actual temp.

I'm totally in favor of what jonv recommended...cut your salt back to 2% or less (the 15 g salt/750 g flour = 2%) and just hydrate your yeast in room temp water. There is no reason to boil your water (unless you are getting rid of chlorine or just took it out of the river )...also both good arguments for buying a gallon of water that's been filtered by osmosis or run by a UV lamp. (Note: don't use distilled water...the yeast really does better with some of those minerals). By the way, try using a little more water...you're at 61% and lots of folks use between 65%-69% bakers percent...makes for a softer and more stretchable dough.

[jonv]

Generally I find salt in the range 1.6 to 2% of flour weight is ideal; you do seem to have a lot of salt in this recipe. I would reduce that to no more than 15g.

As you note, the initial water temperature could be too high, killing the yeast before it had a chance to do anything,

Personally, I don't start any dough, whether bread or pizza, with warm water. It isn't necessary, and I don't ferment in a particularly warm place. Fast fermentation is exactly what I try to avoid; in my view, the dough will have better flavour and structure if allowed to develop more slowly, at no more than a cool room temperature.

I would suggest trying a batch with reduced salt and keeping at room temperature and seeing how it goes.

[cleverdick]

This is getting interesting now! I don't claim to have any credentials whatsoever in biochemistry, so it's all useful stuff.

Given that Caputo is essentially a 'professional' flour, I do now wonder if it doesn't have an added enzyme - which the Marino possibly does. Perhaps I've been taking that for granted.

Also, I have taken to doing the proving in the regular electric oven, which only has dial markings down to 50c. Below that it's anyone's guess (although I do use a coil-spring thermometer and aim for 40 or just below).

Anyway, I shall now divulge my recipe and methodology, for your comments (sorry about the metric measurements):

750g flour, 460g water, 4.5g active dried yeast, 25g Maldon smoked sea salt, 5g garlic powder, 1.5 tablespoon olive oil

200ml (or grams) boiling water in a Pyrex jug, make up to 460ml (or grams) with cold water [this bit is quite likely the problem - too hot!]
Add 4.5g active dried yeast and stir in
Weigh 750g flour
Add yeast water, mix for a couple of minutes and autolyse for 20 minutes
Add salt, garlic and olive oil
Mix for 10 minutes or until a spiral column forms
Prove 2 - 2.5 hours
Form doughballs (feedthrough method), place in covered proofing box in a cool place (i.e. a cold floor) until an hour or so before cooking

This recipe generally serves me well, but clearly I'm doing something wrong if it's so highly dependent on the brand of flour used.

Once again I welcome your thoughts

Rich

[SableSprings]

In the yeast reference chart (link in post #4), 20c-27c is the optimum range for yeast growth & reproduction. It is important to have the yeast multiply to an adequate level before they can start to actually start the fermentation process (to form the CO2 required for the rise). Even though the max fermentation rate is achieved in the range of 27c-38c, if you don't have enough yeast cells then you won't have adequate gas production to get trapped in the "gluten nets". Again, I think reducing temp for that initial 2.5 hrs would be worth trying.

Also, I wondered about your salt addition. Salt will pretty much kill yeast upon contact (wet...not dry). If you put salt & yeast together when you add the water there can be a pretty high mortality of yeast cells. Normally for my breads I autolyze half the mixed water and flour 30 minutes to an hour to let the flour hydrate completely. At that point I add my yeast, mix, and then refrigerate overnight. The next morning, I add the remaining water and about 2/3 remaining flour and mix. This gives me a pretty wet dough. At this point I add the salt by sprinkling over the wet dough. That way, there is enough available moisture to dissolve the salt and enough volume to minimize any salt/yeast interaction. You will notice when the salt is added that there also is a very distinct tightening of the dough. Salt not only inhibits the growth and fermentation of yeast, but it strengthens the gluten structures. You need to slow down the yeast growth so that fermentation is where the yeast cells concentrate their efforts (instead of reproduction). After the salt is mixed in, I finish adding the remaining flour for my final dough and then start my first bulk fermentation step.

Anyway, just a couple extra thoughts. By the way, I do add a pinch of 5-row malted barley flour (0.5% bakers percent) to all my doughs to give them a little enzyme boost (helping to break down the flour into more "digestible food" for the yeast cells). This is what jonv is referring to in post #8 above. Most flours have a small addition of these enzymes to aid in the yeast growth and fermentation processes...it is possible that your flour didn't have these additions and the yeast just couldn't get going at those temps...in beer making, this is called a "stuck start"

Hope that some of this info is of use to you...good luck, and I'm sure as you gain experience and success you'll look back on this minor glitch with a smile and a twinkle in your eye.

[jonv]

The previous replies offer some sage advice, especially regarding temperature and water. If you rule out the yeast, water, and temperature, which are more likely culprits, one might then wonder whether the flour is low in amylase. I don't know this flour at all so have no idea what it should be like. Though I don't do it with any of my doughs, you could add some barley malt and see if that addresses the problem.

[JRPizza]

I only asked as I am using some pretty old yeast and not getting hardly any raise on my dough. Need to get some fresh and see how that works.

[cleverdick]

Useful information, for which I am grateful

Thing is though, everything was the same except the flour, so it would be easy to blame it on that.

I hear you about the proving temperature, but I've probably gone even higher than 40 before and got away with it. Very interesting thought about the water.

I shall persist and report back....

[SableSprings]

With 15 months left on your IDY (I assume this is the type of yeast you are using) yeast's shelf life, it's probably not the problem. (Just put a couple pinches of sugar in a cup of room temp bottled water with some of your yeast and wait...if it's foaming in 10-15 minutes it's good.) At least two other possibilities are at work... 1) 40c is about the highest temp for active yeast fermentation that you'd want to use (link = http://www.theartisan.net/dough_ferm...emperature.htm) and at 41c, fermentation starts to decline rapidly and 2) water chlorination levels can inhibit and/or kill yeast.

I ferment my breads with a levain (sourdough) and IDY. My levain is kept at 20c-23c and it bubbles along nicely. My poolish bread component (IDY) is mixed and then put in the refrigerator overnight at 2c-3c. When I take it out in the morning to bring it back to room temp, there's lots of big bubbles already formed...the cold slows it down but doesn't stop it. I have started using bottled water for all my breads since I got a "pulse" of higher than normal chlorine through my tap and it almost killed my levain/sourdough starter (that I've had going since 1974).

I suspect your most likely problem is using too high a temperature. A nice room temp is plenty good for a dough (pizza or bread) that is going to have a leisurely rise. The higher temps (27c-33c and up to 40c) are used when folks want to get the fastest rise on their doughs (resulting in the least flavorful products--IMHO)...many big commercial bakeries for example.

Hope this helps...let us know