Recipe with Semolina

[heliman]

I've been keeping an eye open for pizza dough recipes containing semolina and have just come across this one which looks quite interesting:

Bread flour - 600g
Semolina flour - 400g
Olive oil - 10g
Sugar (eek) - 10g
Salt - 10g
IDY - 20g
Water - 650g

I plan on giving it a go tonight.

Any thoughts and comments on it before I jump in?

One observation is that it will end up with a pretty high gluten content with the large % semolina added.

[Mitchamus]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

it's 65% hydrated, should be easier to work, but probably won't bubble up as well as the higher hydration doughs...

Sugar might make it burn/blister a bit quicker than normal, but will make the crust a bit cripser, while the oil will make it softer on the inside - probably keep your eye on the first one.. you might need to adjust the cooking time to account for the sugar

20g of IDY (about 3 tsp) seems like overkill!
for a 1kg batch I think 1tsp is ample - but that's just my opinion...

let us know how it goes!!

[heliman]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Thanks Mitch ... points noted.

Definitely agree that the yeast component is a bit high - I have been very happy with the lower rise attributable to less yeast. Perhaps though the recipe is designed for quick use with a very short fermentation time - much like the standard FB one! So, I will start with 7 grams to begin with and increase as necessary.

I just had a thought too - back to my quest for the yellow dough - the increased percentage (above what I used in the last experiment), may indeed give me the yellowness of the bought dough that I am so eager to produce.

Looks like it's going to be a busy baking weekend ... which is due to start in just over an hours time!

[Mitchamus]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

I'm on the east coast - and already on my second beer. It's a goodweekend so far I think you'll enjoy it when it gets to the west coast!!! :P

[heliman]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Ha -don't start me on daylight saving!!!!!

Well this recipe (modded to 7g yeast) is WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW ... amazing, fantastic and this is what I will stick to from now on. Crisp, chewy, correct rise, nice browing and easy handled.

I am now a convert to recipes that focus on the best characteristics of pizza dough rather than slavishly pursuing "traditional" recipes.

Pic to follow.

[texassourdough]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Hi Rossco!

The sugar doesn't do much. Note that it is LESS than the yeast. All they are doing is trying to make it rise faster by jump starting the yeast. From a flavor perspective it would be better to jump start the enzymes (presoak the flour) to create sugar before adding the yeast. And yeast is way high - again trying to make a dough that will be ready in an hour or two.

There are issues with semolina you should recognize. Semolina contains high protein but much of that protein is not gluten forming which contribute to why semolina (and durum) give a different texture. It also contributes to rising problems which are compounded by the grainy texture of semolina which are said to cut gluten strands (like whole wheat) and restrict gluten development. (Durham flour is supposedly better due to the finer texture. In any event, semolina dough will tend to not rise as well due to reduced gluten development and that could be a contributing reason to why one might want higher yeast levels.

I agree with Mitch tho... I would skip the sugar, uee less yeast, and soak the flour or retard the dough.

Good Luck!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Hi Jay,

Thanks for that. Yes, I'll definitely cut down on the yeast next time around to say 14 grams or so. Does that sound better?

I am using Durham flour and I will be getting a commercial bag plus some more Baker's flour from the supplier next week. I have a work function at my place on the 21st (lunch time) and will definitely use this recipe (or a derivitive thereof) on that occasion.

[texassourdough]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Hi Rossco!

Yeast is usually in the 1% range - about 10 grams for the recipe above instead of 20. 14 is in the right range and MAY? make sense due to the lower gluten of semolina.

Go for it. It may overproof in 2 hours or it may not???

Let us know what you get!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Hi Jay - thanks for clarifying the yeast %, I will adjust the recipe accordingly.

BTW I thought that semolina/durham has a very high protein/gluten content - hence the rubbery nature one sometimes experiences. The "difinitive" source Wikipedia suggests this "...Its high protein and gluten content, as well as its strength, make durum good for special uses". Wikipedia

Will definitely be adjusting proofing time around the visual indicator of it trippling in size, but at the moment the environment seems to be optimum as there is slight humidity and its fairly warm too. I should check the temp to get a more accurate indication of the environment here.

[texassourdough]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

I based my comments on Hamelman. I don't have any experience with durham flour so all I can do is cite others. My experience with semolina agrees that it has a different texture. Hamelman says semolina durham has the highest protein but the quality of the protein is not as good as hard winter or hard spring wheat for making bread. Durham has a tendency to break down in a mixer and is easily overmixed. He directly support my statement it has lower gluten forming protein...I must have gotten that elsewhere. Will try to look that up later. I am pretty sure that is correct, but...I may be wrong.

My Wikipedia says nothing about gluten and semolina. North Dakota State university has some info that will take effort to process that addresses the issue but...it is beyond my current ability to make confident sense of it.

Best!
Jay

[Mitchamus]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Hey rossco,
what brand of semolina did you use?

and just to confirm, you used the fine semolina right?

(going to try this tonight)

cheers
mitch

[heliman]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Hi Mitch,

I used semolina (durham) flour - a very fine grind but still has a slight granule texture if rubbed between fingers. I got it from a place called "All about bread" locally - very overpriced but they are nearby and I was experimenting so just bough 2 kg of it.

Not sure who makes it but I know that there is an Allied Mills brand which I will probably buy a bag of soon as this stuff makes the best pizzas I have tasted.

Good luck with the bakeoff - pics please!!!

[Mitchamus]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

OK so the first issue -

I couldn't get fine semolina - so i used coarse. Not ideal I know - but hey I thought I would give it a shot anyway.
As soon as I can get my hands on some fine semolina - I'll try again.

I mixed this with a commercial pizza flour made by Manildra group,
and I used dark brown sugar, which gives a great smell to the dough.

I added the sugar, yeast & oil to the water and left it to activate while I weighed out the flour & salt.

I mixed the flours & salt together & set aside 1 cup of this mixture.
Then I mixed in all of the water/yeast & oil and leaving it for a 20 minute autolyse. (next time I will add the salt after the autolyse, as I usually do)

I then added in the reserved flour, and turned it out on the bench for a rigorous 10 minute knead.

I returned this to the bowl for a 1.5 hour prove, in which time the dough didn't really double - but I was pressed for time. Normally, this amount of time would have had a 1kg batch of regular dough filling that particular bowl.

I attribute this to the coarse Semolina - I should also add that I added 1.5tsp of IDY to try and speed things up, and I also kneaded for 3 minutes longer than normal to try and develop more gluten - again to try and speed things up a bit.

I knocked the dough down and divided the dough into 3 to make 3 quite large (& thick) pizzas.

There are no pics of the pizzas, as I cooked them in a conventional oven!
BLASPHEMY!!!

So how did they taste?

ok I guess - I did notice that the crust was a fair bit crunchier than the normal VPN - which I attribute to the sugar & Semolina. But I'm firmly sitting on the fence until I can try again with fine semolina! -I want to do it justice!

My non VPN recipe is very similar to this one (although without semolina) but uses 2 tbsp of dark brown sugar to 5 cups of flour (825g) - which is quite a bit more than the recipe here, and also 4tbsp of oil.

I would also like to try again with a full 2 hour prove!
(with a knock down at 1hr)

If you look closely at the proved dough - you can see the 'grainey-ness' of the coarse Semolina (it's not my shitty kneading - honest!

so - sorry for the crappy review... I'll do a proper one next time.. with the proper ingredients and time!

cheers,
mitch.

[heliman]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

Good experiment!!! I too used a rather coarse semolina on the first round - but even that turned out quite nicely. Did you go according to the recipe I posted i.e. 60/40 Baker's flour/semolina?

I bought some fine semolina (flour) yesterday and had a close look at its texture. It is certainly grainy, but seems to absorb nicely into the flour - which does take on an overall rough texture in the finished product.

I will be experimenting with WFO baked versions of this dough this weekend as I have only baked in the inside oven up until now. Results have been really good overall and I am definitely convinced that breaking the rather restrictive mould of "traditionalism" has witnessed a new beginning in my ability to produce tasty, well textured pizza dough...

Definitely give it a go with the fine semolina - I'm sure that you will see a difference there.

[Mitchamus]

Re: Recipe with Semolina

yep - 60/40

Everything (except the yeast) was as per the recipe...