Sourdough crust

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough crust

Perhaps I am interpreting Jay's statement about retarding incorrectly, but I took it to mean retarding in the course of making BREAD.
IMO, pizza crust is different in that you're not dependent on the gas action during proofing to nearly the same extent as you are with a loaf of bread. Assuming a properly constructed dough, as long as there is enough activity and hydration to give a good oven spring once it hits the heat, a blob of pizza crust is very forgiving in terms of proof/retard. Even with the most gentle of shaping, you're degassing a pizza round most of the way anyway.

For the purposes of my "recipe" the fridge retard is 100% for ease of do-ahead and prep, but it certainly can't hurt flavor-wise, either. As I said previously, I think this is where the sourdough is really a better option for pizza rounds because it seems like it holds for a number of days without getting weird vs. IDY which definitely declines after day 1 or 2. There seems to be something different (and better) about the way sourdough acts on gluten vs. IDY. Or perhaps it is just the consequence of sourdough being slower as Jay said.

I am hosting at the WFO on Sunday. I am going to start with feeding/build today for about 25 rounds. Whenever they are ready, they are ready and I know they'll be happy and in tip-top shape in the fridge until ready to be used vs. IDY which I would feel compelled to be making/using same day.

Never fear! If you know your starter reasonably well, I urge you to give it a try for at least part of your dough stock. I find I learn the most when I can compare things side by side and it sounds like you have the perfect opportunity this weekend!

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Sourdough crust

Thanks Splatgirl for the good advice. I fed my starter yesterday eve so I'll make a side-by-side batch (on Sat) for my Sunday event as well. I have tons of Caputo 000 so I'll use that for the time being over KA's.

I've printed out your Sourdough crust and look forward to trying it. Thanks, Dino

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough crust

Hi Splatg!

I agree with you for the most part. However, I think retarding dough improves flavor (up to a point) whether bread or pizza. The challenge with sourdough is that my yeast basically quits at refrigerator temps so I get very little leavening during the retard. I actually do my sourdough breads all at room temp. Dino's idea of adding some sourdough is quite workable and will give a more complex dough. The challenge with pure sourdough is timing. I tend to do it more like sourdough pancakes and use the sourdough starter more as a flavoring than as a leaven - so I still use commercial yeast (though if you add too much SD starter you can knock the pH down to where the IDY is significantly slowed 15 to 20 percent should be safe but I usually use only 5 to 10. As you pointed out the level of proofing is not as critical in pizza as bread.

It's easy to lose sight of the fact that there are two sources of oven spring. The gas in bubbles in the dough and the gas that is dissolved in the dough. Colder dough holds more CO2 than hot dough (and as a secondary effect, alcohols in the dough vaporize). When placed in the oven these gases leave "solution" and migrate to form and enlarge pockets which I think creates a good bit of the pizza puff in the first 45 seconds or so. A good example is to roll out a pie - there can't be any big bubbles left! But when you bake it you can get a lot of puff (if it isn't overproofed).

I look forward to hearing what you think about the results, Dino! Experiments are always good when you know what you are doing different!

Bake On!
Jay

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough crust

Speaking of sourdough--I did 6kg. of dough for the weekend party, and about 2kg. of that was whole wheat. Other than being ~75% WW flour, it was made, handled and stored exactly like the 4kg. of all white flour dough, but it had a significantly more pronounced sour flavor. Why?

I also add vital wheat gluten to my whole wheat doughs at a rate of about 30g. per kg. but it seems weird to me that that would make any difference in flavor...?

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough crust

Hi splatg!

That's a good size bake! You are, no doubt, reinforcing friendships as you give away the excess bread! (Either that or you had a hellaciously big party! Either way you gotta be winning points!)

WW has more flavor compounds (and nutrients) than white flour in the base case so it shouldn't be surprising the bread would have more flavor. In addition, sourdough loves WW and rye more than white flour due to the higher nutrients so it tends to be more active and that can give more flavor also.

The addition of vital wheat gluten is certainly not necessary but can be beneficial in generating a more ideal gluten matrix in the dough that will better capture CO2 and such and thereby provide greater oven spring than loaves w/o vital wheat...

I oscillate back and forth between whole wheat and bread dough. I made some pane Pugliese Friday at 73% hydration using AP. That was interestingly WET! I hope to get some photos up later.

Way to go!
Jay

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough crust

Makes sense about the nutrient content of WW. Thanks Jay.

It was pizza, and yea, I'm pretty much party central.
IIRC, this was the first time I've done WW sourdough for pizza. Surprising how much of a pronounced sour flavor it had vs. the white flour version that you'd not necessarily notice is sourdough. To be honest, I'm not sure I liked it.

I do like the VWG for anything over about 75% WW flour. It makes a huge difference in my 100% WW sandwich loaf that is one of my weekly bakes. With pizza dough, it makes it just as extensible and lovely as the all white flour version.

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Sourdough crust

Well Splatgirl, I made your sour-dough (SD) recipe at the begging of this thread and my usual Caputo-ADY w/ dollop of starter for side-by-side comparison. I put the SD in the wine cellar (58-60 deg) and the next day was shocked at it's activity. The dough silky, very smooth, very wet and bubbly. I was unable to stretch on the back of my hand like the standard recipe. It would tear in the middle so I just pushed it around on a floured peel. Oven spring was spectacular. Color, amazing. Taste, quite sour. THEN I saved my 3 other doughs for the "big" party the next day (So that's 2 days retardation). Still strong and lively as the pic below shows. It's on the right, the standard flat ball is on the left. Still made the same beautiful pie base, great oven spring but this time the sour flavor was not as pronounced, so it was actually even tastier.

Both doughs performed well, and the SD balls seems to allow for a more versatile, extended pre-prep and doesn't peak or over-rise like standard dough.

I did find that 250 grams was too small a ball since I couldn't stretch like I'm used to. Is that what you've found too? Maybe I was working too wet since I added more water due to hot, dry weather.

Thanks for sharing the great recipe and giving me another good choice in pizza bases. Oh, and being a novice at this, it was my 1st time using KA bread flour at pizza temps. I see it works fine.

Thanks again, Dino

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough crust

YAY!
In my one or two forays into Caputo, I did find that I had to mod my shaping technique, FWIW.

My default method for stretching is to plop the dough blob from the container into a bowl of flour. Flip it over to coat the entire thing, then begin. If the blob is fully coated and there is a dusting covering the peel, it'll never, ever stick even if it's a super wet dough. I use wood peels...metal always gives me a problem because it doesn't hold the flour or allow even distribution. I consider an excess of flour under the pie a major character flaw.

I use a mix of shaping by holding the blob and gently pinching near the edge while letting it hang and stretch under its own weight, stretching over the backs of my knuckles to thin out the middle, and then flopping down onto the peel. I like to let it sit for a minute and relax once it's there and then return to give it a final little make-bigger nudge.
I've found I like my portions between 230 and 250g. but that's completely dependent on how big a pie you're used to and how thick you like your cornice. I am a smallish cornice, ~12-13" pie kinda girl.

So glad you got a good result! I have decided I'm making this WFO cookery thing look WAY too easy these days! I'm going to have to start turning the peel and oven over to my guests and letting a few disasters happen so they'll appreciate the learning curve we've all had to go through

[Jed]

Re: Sourdough crust

Splat - Jay - Dino,

Hay Ya'll, Thanks for having this discussion! It is a great learning experience for me to follow along... I am a promoter of all thing's naturally fermented!

Next to spend the time to learn about fermenting vinegar... we were traveling this weekend and was surprised to find a retail store in a mall that sells almost exclusively different flavored vinegar and olive oil... I guess we don't get out much, but that seemed pretty specialized to me...

And Splat, yes it is time to turn the oven over to the guests! I have found it to be great fun letting folks cook their own pizza in two minutes and less! They love it, great fun.. Oh a disaster or two here and there,, you can fix'm, or start over...

JED

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough crust

Way to go Dino! As I recall there are critters in dough that break down acetic acid.

And Splat, be sure to have them sign a liability release in case their pies are inedible or they encase themselves in dough (a human calzone!)

Glad it helped Jed.

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Sourdough crust

Hey Jay, I just tried this ingenious ("Duh") method on my 2 doughs last weekend.

One humorous Reinhart story. Most of us, me included, use flour to control the dough, thinking that if it is already sticky more water will make it worse. Peter baked for 20 years before he went (and this is intended to be a humorous paraphrase, not literal), "Duh, dough won't stick to wet hands!" and began wetting his hands before working with wet doughs.

I felt like a kid in a candy store. It's so counter-intuitive but once I started folding and balling and no dough stuck between my fingers...I started laughing at the simplicity and success of it. It also forced me to extra-hydrate beyond the recipe which is critical in our hot/dry SoCal desert environment.

PS to SplatG: A bowl of flour for that wet dough would've been just the thing for me too. I'll do that next time too.

This has been a great thread for me on all kinds of levels,
Thanks again all, Dino

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough crust

Glad to help, Dino! It was so funny to hear an accomplished, famous baker acknowledge the standard foibles of "logical" approaches and the "Aha!" moment. As you acknowledge in your comment...it only takes using wet hands once and you're hooked. It is easy, clean, and...definitely brings smiles!

I actually use a jellyroll pan to hold my flour and I plop the dough ball onto the flour in the pan and do the initial patting down on the pan. Then I slap it a few times which knocks off the excess flour and it is ready to go on the peel.

Bake on!
Jay

[acbova]

Re: Sourdough crust

Yea the weather has cooled and it's Pizza making time again (yea indoor oven only). I made your dough Splatgirl and it was totally fantastic. It was about 2.5 days old and was the most crisp and light crust I've ever made.

Pizzas were topped with a mess of stuff from the garden including tomatoes. These were by far the best pizza's I've ever made.

I think the best is I can even google "splatgirl sourdough" from my phone and get to the recipe!

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough crust

YO! That is fantastic! Great to hear it worked for you!

[lloydl2]

Re: Sourdough crust

Hi, i've just started using sourdough and created a culture which I used for the first time yesterday. I have a 2 stone pizza oven and Molina tipo 00 pizza flour. The starter is 100% hydration fed with KA all purpose. I use Rhinehart's pizza recipe which is about 70% hydration. I used 60 grams of starter and made a preferment with 128 g of flour and water using the tipo 00, I let that sit for about 15 hours it didn't rise much but was bubbly. I then added the remainder of the ingredients another 633 g flour and 389 g of water and 20 g of salt and let rise about 3 hours balled into 12 0z balls and refrigerated. I took the balls out about 6 hours before use. They looked and worked well and tasted great, however I didn't get much oven pop and only small hole crumb and the crust didn't brown and char even cooking at 850 plus degrees. The taste was excellent but not so the texture instead of light and airy it was a bit dense and chewy. Any feedback would be appreciated.. thanks..