Overworking Dough?

[heliman]

Re: Overworking Dough?

Hydration is pretty high - about 66 - 67 percent I reckon.

[splatgirl]

Re: Overworking Dough?

yep, that's mine, too.

[texassourdough]

Re: Overworking Dough?

I am back! Sorry to have been gone and out of this...

Different flours seem to prefer different treatment. At issue to me is what the dough handles like at forming the pie and the results I get.

Truly overworked dough gets too hot (say above 80 degrees while mixing which introduces oxygen which oxidizes things in the dough and supposedly contributes to the rubbery toughness). I find that difficult to believe but dough that gets too hot IS wierd. The big advantage of spiral mixers is they don't heat the dough and as a result give really nice dough.

In my experience, I find that bread dough likes to be balled early - say a half hour to hour after mixing and then bagged ala Reinhart. Its extra strength from extra gluten benefits from having more time to relax IMO and makes it easier to handle the next day and form pies. AP is much more forgiving and I like to bulk retard it and ball it about two hours before I begin baking. It is softer and balling at 2 hours gives it a nice (IMO desirable) level of "toughness". Caputa is IMO wierd. It is low protein but it seems to toughen easily - not so noticable as dough but definitely in bite if it is balled at 2 hours. So I ball it ahead also. I used to bag my dough but now I ball it, put it in plastic trays with lids and sprinkle lightly with flour and retard the trays in the refigerator (for bread and Caputo flour).

The amount of mixing is an interesting question. Gluten forms in ten to fifteen minutes, twenty outside to a good level IF you hydrate it thoroughly (i.e. no dry spots which will be problems later). An important factor is QUICK, even hydration, and let it sit for twenty minutes. Give it a few folds to organize the gluten and you are ready to go - that should be all the mixing you will need - but retarding will give you better flavor. When Reinhart was here I watched him really carefully on his mixing and he pretty much followed what I said. Vigorous mixing with a fork or spoon to uniformly hydrate the dough. Then a couple of minutes of mixing with a mixer or some folds, and then just let it sit for 20 minutes. Then some more folds. And the dough texture was really nice. No danger of overworking or anything else. The quick, uniform hydration seems to be a big help in getting "windowpane" dough. Use wet hands. Don't use extra flour - it screws up your hydration and tears the gluten.

Hope this is useful!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Overworking Dough?

This has turned into a really informative thread - thanks Splat & Jay.

Based on this info an am rethinking my current dough making process.

BTW does Reinhart do all his dough mixing by hand?? Just wondering because I use the paddle attachment on the mixer for a minute or so to combine the flour, water, yeast and salt before allowing 20 mins for autolyse. Perhaps the mechanical mixing process pre-autolyse produces a different effect?

I have alse been doing a knead of 5 minutes using 75% of flour + water, salt & yeast in the TBird, adding the remaining flour over the next three minutes. Is this method OK?

[texassourdough]

Re: Overworking Dough?

Reinhart can go any direction. I think he does most of his dough by hand but he uses mixers in class because most people do.

A REALLY interesting perception I hope to test soon is that his dough was very much like the spiral dough I have experienced. Very soft and smooth and "creamy" (the last is just to emphasize the smoothness. I am convinced that his quick hydration to uniform level is a key contributor (but may not be) and that keeping dry flour away from the dough is also important. More soon!
Jay

[splatgirl]

Re: Overworking Dough?

Reinhardt's books do include the use of a stand mixer. I think it's much more likely that what's going on with the dough post-hydration is what has the biggest effect.

Everything happens in my KA for neo. pizza dough. (I do not have the spiral hook, mine is old skool, C hook and I don't ever use the paddle, FWIW.) The only ingredient I add after the autolyse period is the salt. Frequently, I will finish a bread dough with hand kneading, but that's only the last couple of minutes and then only if I' don't like the way it looks on the hook.

I feel it is important to expose the full volume of flour to the water from the get go. What you've described basically leaves 25% of the flour unhydrated and IMO that would have a significant effect on the quality of the dough. For no knead, this wouldn't matter as much but I'm talking "standard" method here.
I make a point of adding as little bench flour as possible once the dough has been kneaded. I portion my dough into individual lidded containers and when I'm ready to shape, I dump the dough directly from the container into a dish of flour to coat the entire surface of the blob and then stretch/shape. I find this method works WONDERS for minimizing handling and the need for further flouring. Aside from that, just the teeniest dusting on the peel.

I agree with everything Jay said about the differences in brands/types of flour. I use King Arthur Bread flour almost exclusively for pizza now, but I have used other brands of bread flour and about #40 of Caputo. For Caputo, the way that it wanted to be worked was weird. Much less forgiving of any missteps in technique and not worth it, IMO, because the cooked texture is about 98% the same as with King Arthur, and the King Arthur gets me better flavor.

[splatgirl]

Re: Overworking Dough?

OK, Jay, I'm curious about that now, too. I makes total sense that an even hydration from the get go would get a "creamier" product when one considers how the flour sucks up water and almost plays keep away with it from the dry flour.
I'm going to have to play around with how I introduce the water to the flour and see if I can tell a difference.

A good reference book for understanding the chemistry of flour/water or any food for that matter, is Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking". I have a chem/sci background and am a totall cooking geek so I find that kind of thing endlessly interesting.

[texassourdough]

Re: Overworking Dough?

Hi Splat!

this is the kind of thing that could be hallucination, but I will swear that spiral and great hand made dough have a silkiness, smoothness that I have never felt in a mixer dough. It is subtle but...I am convinced it is there. The chemical engineer in me really doesn't want to believe that the heating of the mixer and the higher oxygen incorporation into the dough (which is on careful thought MUCH higher in a mixer) makes a difference but...touch keeps telling me it does. The last dough I made was easily the best I have ever made and I think you nailed two of the key factors - quick, uniform hydration (and I think you may be right a flour particle that absorbs water effectively plays keep away from later particles), and minimal later flour incorporation. The key was I mixed it fast at first to get it thoroughly wet and then I worked it with wet hands. I have always been concerned that the dough would get too wet and unworkable but it got silky and smooth and LESS tacky. Really nice. (I had always used flour on sticky dough and it was still good by even Peter's grades but this is clearly better!)

I am not currently using mixers on any bread doughs but pizza/focaccia/ciabbata and not always then.

I feel I have passed through a door to a new level and I understand what I did but I don't understand why!

McGee is great for lots of things and his bread section is good, but the best book on bread IMO is Bread Science by Emily Buehler (Two Blue Books - Home). Sounds like you will revel in it! Emily is great! But even she doesn't have ALL the answers!

Stay warm!
Jay

[splatgirl]

Re: Overworking Dough?

thanks for the book suggestion. I am going to check that out for sure.

So the gist I'm feeling here is that the more flour particles you can put into DIRECT contact with water vs. the "sharing" of water that the already hydrated particles and clumps are forced to do with the dry stuff makes a big difference. Explains why you kneading with wet hands made a difference...you were directly wetting down more flour particles than would have otherwise gotten wet.

Now I'm sitting here picturing myself using a spray bottle to evenly distribute water onto the flour. probably not practical, but it also got me thinking about how some classic methods describe dissolving the salt into the water first, how that would alter the hydrogen bonds of the water and thus affect how it behaves when contacting the flour. Or how about the difference in static charge between flour particles in a humid environment vs. dry?

How do you handle the salt component for your doughs, Jay?

[texassourdough]

Re: Overworking Dough?

Hi Splatg!

I think you are onto something with the wet hands comment. To my touch it is sort of like the worked dough that has "flour" in it from kneading on a too floured counter - the dough is sort of stiff. And it doesn't get as much rise. And I am thinking that the dry flour may be cutting the gluten or somehow fouling it in the kneading process. Wet hands and no flour gives a very different result. And the idea the wet hands help even the hydration makes a lot of sense.

One of the neat things about watching Peter make dough is his dough comes together in less than a minute. Not finished, but wet and taking form and ready to put under a bowl and rest. (I don't think a minute is exagerating! It might be a bit longer but it is FAST!)

The gluten will form in about fifteen minutes but won't be organized. Simply letting that rise will not organize the gluten. It doesn't take much - just a couple of folds to get organized gluten into pretty good form.

Salt is an interesting question. Salt inhibits yeast and toughens gluten. I have almost always added salt from the beginning - mixed in the flour. I have toyed with delayed salt and down here in the south I don't like it because it rises too fast w/o the salt. Up north in a cooler kitchen it would probably work better. I have not tried dissolving the salt. I am not sure that would be good. I think delayed salt may have advantages in that it won't be uniformly mixed through the bread and I can see that as beneficial to giving a more "interesting" bread with big holes (where the salt is lower) and smaller holes (where it is more conentrated). Also maybe give a subtle variation to the flavor.

Intersting!!! Good thoughts.

BTW, Emily sells the books herself. It is an excellent nerd read. Rather chemically detailed.

Thanks!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Overworking Dough?

So, at this stage there seems to be consensus on:

1. include all flour, water and yeast;

2. hydration 66 - 67%;

3. autolyse 20 mins;

4. add salt;

5. knead 8 - 9 mins;

6. no added flour (or bare minimum);

7. cut and ball soon after dough is made;

8. allow dough to rest for at least 90 minutes before use.

Did I leave anything out?

[heliman]

Re: Overworking Dough?

I think you are onto something with the wet hands comment. To my touch it is sort of like the worked dough that has "flour" in it from kneading on a too floured counter - the dough is sort of stiff.

Is there any way to duplicate the "wet hand" phenomenon using a spiral hook mixer?

One of the neat things about watching Peter make dough is his dough comes together in less than a minute. Not finished, but wet and taking form and ready to put under a bowl and rest. (I don't think a minute is exagerating! It might be a bit longer but it is FAST!)

Is this 1 minute of kneading?

The gluten will form in about fifteen minutes but won't be organized. Simply letting that rise will not organize the gluten. It doesn't take much - just a couple of folds to get organized gluten into pretty good form.

Why do some suggest that we knead between 5 - 10 mins in the mixer (or 20 mins by hand) to develop the gluten? I'm sure that Reinhardt was one of them...

[texassourdough]

Re: Overworking Dough?

Hi Rossco!

In your next to last email you mention 8-9 minutes of kneading. I don't think that is necessary. It depends on a lot of factors. Reinhart literally mixed for about a minute. Let it sit 15 to 30 minutes, and folded a couple of times - say 30 seconds - and made some really nice dough.

There is an issue that we are blending bread and pizza dough recipes. I don't consider the difference significant, but it could be in that balling/loaf formation should occur at different points after mixing/kneading.

WRT spiral vs. wet, spirals give equivalent quality in my experience so it is a duplicate in my experience. The logic is that spirals don't work as much air into the dough as a conventional mixer and doesn't heat the dough as much.

RE: 1 minute. Not even a minute of kneading. More like 20 or 30 seconds of stirring and about 30 seconds of working with a spoon or wet hands to get the dough together (i.e. wet the flour and have it take form. I have seen Peter do this three times but I think the first two times it happened so fast I didn't even recognize how significant it was. It was like I blinked and there was a dough ball. It didn't really register. This last time I was watching much more closely. I hope someone else out there gets to go to one of his classes and watch this. I would like confirmation I was not hallucinating!

I am convinced that the "knead for 5 minutes with a mixer" is simply an easy, FAMILIAR way out for cook book writiers. That process does not "create gluten" and only "develope" it in that it hydrates the flour and organizes the gluten. However, simply sitting in a bowl allows gluten to create and folding organizes it so...a brief mix, a rest of say 20 minutes and some folds are about as good as 20 minutes of hand kneading and I don't know how to equate mixing.

Reinhart routinely suggests about 2 minutes of mixing followed by 5 minutes of rest followed by four minutes of mixing (in a mixer). But that doesn't in my experience give dough equivalent to the dough made with the mix fast with a spoon and hands, rest 20 minutes nad fold a few times method.

Try it!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Overworking Dough?

Hello Jay ...

Well this is some new ground for sure!!!

So you are suggesting, based on observations of Reinhart's dough making process, that we can pretty much forego the use of a mixer as it does not serve any real role in the dough making process? If this is indeed the case then it certainly is a departure from anything I have come across regarding pizza dough making in the past...

Just consulted Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice (P. 210). It states in step one in the Pizza Napolitana recipe method: "...if you are using an electric mixer, switch to the dough hook and mix on medium speed for 5 - 7 minutes."

Is it possible that he does things differently during a public demo to save time?

[Tscarborough]

Re: Overworking Dough?

"dough made with the mix fast with a spoon and hands, rest 20 minutes nad fold a few times method."

That is the only way I have ever done it for bread, biscuits, or pizzas. Good thing I have never read a bread book or recipe!