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  • marcuscarey
    started a topic Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Something doesn't add up. The real VPN website has a recipe that differs greatly from the one on Forno Bravo even though FB says theirs is the official one. Has anyone tried both?

    Here is the Forno Bravo recipe for crusts claiming to be the VPN recipe:

    Authentic Vera Pizza Napoletana Dough Recipe

    Ingredients

    By Weight
    500gr Molino Caputo Tipo 00 flour
    325gr water (65% hydration)
    10gr salt
    3gr active dry yeast



    Now here is the official recipe from the VPN website:

    Water: 1 litre (1000 ml)
    Salt: 50-55 grams
    Yeast; 3 grams
    Flour: 1.7/1.8 kg (depending on strength)

    Look at the vast differnces. Compare the VPN to FB.

    FB is using only 500 grams of flour wheras VPN is using 1800 grams of flour which means we need to convert the FB recipe to scale up from 500g flour to 1800g flour. Here's what happens when we do.

    FB says 10 grams of salt. That's one gram for every 50 grams of flour. So in 1800 grams of flour you would use only 36 grams of salt under the FB, but VPN says 55 grams.

    FB says 3 grams of yeast for 500 grams of flour. VPN says 3 grams of yeast for 1800 grams of flour.

    FB says 325 grams of water for 500 grams of flour. VPN says 1 liter (1Kg) of water for 1.8Kg of flour. FB's water conversion would be 1170 grams of water in 1800 grams of flour, far more than VPN says.

    HELP!

  • TXCraig1
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Try skipping the bulk ferment and go straight to balls. More time in balls will give the dough time to relax. 8-12 hours in balls is a good place to start. In the fridge you can go a lot longer. At room temp (60's-70's) 24 is about the max.,

    Leave a comment:


  • marcuscarey
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    I have watched dozens of videos on forming crusts. I seem completely unable to do what others seem to do so easily.

    Here is what I tried today at my little Bistro.

    Friday morning 8 am:

    1.8Kg Caupto 00
    1080g Water
    55g salt
    ~3.4g Lesaffre SAF-Instant Red Dry Yeast
    Kitchen Aid Mixer

    Water into mixing bowl, dissolved the salt, added a little flour, then the yeast, then started the mixing and gradually added rest of yeast.

    Mixed on lowest speed for 20 minutes.

    Removed to a bowl with a skim of Olive oil to prevent sticking. Covered bowl with damp towel let sit at room temp for 2 hours.

    Dough grew substantially.

    Placed dough into proofing box and refrigerated overnight.

    7 am Saturday:

    Removed dough, it had grown quite a bit.

    Placed on counter top, cut into 250g portions, formed into balls, back into proofing box, then allowed to come up to temperature of outside cooking pit area (72-75F) in covered proof box.

    Noon, removed first ball from box onto floured marble slab. It had flattened out and grown enough to be substantially touching other balls making removal of a nice baseball sized ball impossible.

    Then began forming with fingers working center out. Nowhere near the silky evenly expanding example from any of the videos I have ever seen.

    Couldn't keep it forming round, ended up oblong and misshapen with a bunch of thick parts around the edges and center getting way to thin.

    Efforts to work edges to proper thickness resulted in holes in center (too thin). Trashed the dough, next ball out to marble, same problems, finally gave up trying to get it round, quit forming when center began to thin out too much, ended up with 6" x 10" oval. Trying for about a 10"-12" crust.

    Cooked nicely, a little doughy ( edges too thick), leoparding was nice but frustrated with the forming and final shape.

    Any help?
    Last edited by marcuscarey; 05-30-2015, 06:00 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • TXCraig1
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Originally posted by Tscarborough View Post
    Flour (100%): 453.8 g
    IDY: (.001%) .5 g
    I think you mean 0.1%

    Leave a comment:


  • TXCraig1
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Originally posted by marcuscarey View Post
    ADY is still very low. VPN has a long slow rise also. 2 hour rest and 2 six hour rises. If refrigerated also 6 hours out at room temp before forming crusts.
    When I use baker's yeast for Neapolitan pizza, I use a lot less than Tom mentioned. Typically about 0.4g IDY for 1700g flour = 0.024% and ferment for 48 hours at about 60-62F. Works perfectly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tscarborough
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    <shrug> It works for me, that is why I say ignore VPN (or anyone's recipe).

    Here is one I made about 3 years ago with even less yeast, I didn't care for the flour though.

    3 balls, 100% Molino Soncini Cesare Tipo 00

    Flour (100%): 453.8 g
    Water (65%): 294.97 g
    IDY: (.001%) .5 g
    Salt (2.5%): 11.35 g
    Total (167.75%): 761.25 g
    Single Ball: 253.75 g

    1.Balled
    2. Doubled on the bench
    3. 24 hours in the fridge
    4. Skin on the bench (14" peel)
    5. Pizza!

    Leave a comment:


  • marcuscarey
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    ADY is still very low. VPN has a long slow rise also. 2 hour rest and 2 six hour rises. If refrigerated also 6 hours out at room temp before forming crusts.

    Leave a comment:


  • mrchipster
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Originally posted by marcuscarey View Post
    I assume ADY

    Very low yeast amount. Surprised you get any rise out of that at all.
    ADY correct

    If you took notes Tscar said he does a bench rise and then a 2-3 day cold ferment.

    Ie slow rise ie less yeast.

    Amount of live yeast in starters

    Live yeast = 100 %
    ADY = 50%
    instant yeast about 33%

    So this makes a difference also
    Last edited by mrchipster; 05-28-2015, 05:47 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • marcuscarey
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Originally posted by Tscarborough View Post
    Here is the one I recommend starting with, the hydration is low enough to make it easy to work with. What I use currently is close to 70% hydration.


    Ingredient Baker's Percent Grams
    OO Flour (100%) 691.04 g
    Water (60%) 414.62 g
    ADY (.075%) 0.52 g
    Salt (2%) 13.82 g
    Total (162.075%) 1120 g
    Single Ball 280 g

    Note that this is for a 2 hour bench rise, then ball and into the fridge for 2-3 days, thus the low yeast amount.

    I assume ADY means active dry yeast which is, according to conversion tables, supposed to be 1/3 the amount of cake yeast (which is what the VPN recipe calls for). So if their recipe is about 3.4 grams per 1kg of flour (or .0034 gram of yeast per gram of flour) yours is less than half of what the dry yeast equivalent would be of either the FB or the VPN.

    Very low yeast amount. Surprised you get any rise out of that at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tscarborough
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Here is the one I recommend starting with, the hydration is low enough to make it easy to work with. What I use currently is close to 70% hydration.


    Ingredient Baker's Percent Grams
    OO Flour (100%) 691.04 g
    Water (60%) 414.62 g
    ADY (.075%) 0.52 g
    Salt (2%) 13.82 g
    Total (162.075%) 1120 g
    Single Ball 280 g

    Note that this is for a 2 hour bench rise, then ball and into the fridge for 2-3 days, thus the low yeast amount.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tscarborough
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    VPN means nothing, nor does the recipe. You are not in Naples, you are not using the same flours, the same ovens, the same water, nothing.

    Use either as a basis to begin and adjust to your conditions, your oven, your preferences.

    edit. And learn to use bakers percentages so you can scale your batches up or down.

    What that means is simple. The amount of flour is 100%. Everything else is expressed as a percentage of that. For example:

    flour 100g (100%)
    water 67g (67%)
    salt 2g (2%)
    yeast 1.5g (1.5%)

    Now instead of one small ball, I want a batch of 12:

    flour 1200g (100%)
    water 804g (67%)
    salt 24g (2%)
    yeast 18g (1.5%)

    Note that the numbers are for simplicity, a good size for a normal Neapolitan dough ball is around 280-300g.
    Last edited by Tscarborough; 05-28-2015, 04:38 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • mrchipster
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Originally posted by Tscarborough View Post
    Ignore both.
    Well Tscar that was not much help....

    You are normally more detailed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tscarborough
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    Ignore both.

    Leave a comment:


  • mrchipster
    replied
    Re: Need Help Settling VPN Ingredient Discrepancy

    I like a higher hydration mix. So on that point I would lean toward FB I use 65% on pizza dough.

    The higher salt content is personal preference you should experiment to see if you like lower or higher salt content. Both will work well.

    Yeast is a live item and the amount of yeast is more an issue of how long and what temperature you keep your dough. Yeast will grow on it's own and based on time and temp ther will be more yeast in the dough after 1-2-3 hours or more. Less yeast = longer ferment... More yeast shorter ferment. Because the yeast will eventually run out of sugars and begin to die. I keep my active yeast low because I do long ferments, typically 48 hours or longer.

    Yeast grows on the sugars of the flour. So the more yeast you add at the start the more active it will be at the start. You do not want to over yeast on long ferments or under yeast on quick dough.

    There is a lot of science regarding dough so if you are really interested in learning, the biggest issue regarding dough is temperature which is not even covered in your question. The temperature of the flour, water, bowl, air, storage location, humidity, and time all are significant details not even covered in your question. But that is a topic of later and you need a log book for your own experience to track how you like to have you dough turn out.

    Not to get real detailed but your own oven will perform different than others and also add another piece to the puzzle.

    I think you get it.
    Last edited by mrchipster; 05-27-2015, 07:20 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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