Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

[texassourdough]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

Ahhh! David!

Cheese will definitely do it! I couldn't see that - like I said, I was simply reacting to the pictures and offering an interpretation that I knew might be wrong! And on the top of the loaves sounds like I was! Given the cheese your dome probably wasn't particularly hot. As an aside, if you see the bread getting too dark and want to stop it a piece of aluminum foil over the loaf will help. Will also slow the baking so the sides can catch up some if you want it to.

My purpose was more to offer hopefully helpful comments to those who have similar bread and are trying to understand what is happening.

I am kind of suprised the bottom and sides of your bread are as light as they are. Usually metal transmits heat so well that I would expect darker browning.

If you are baking in a too hot oven you are doing pretty well. The color of the crust suggests good proofing and the oven spring looks good. You are making nice bread! Looks like it should have good crumb too!

The ice idea is a good one for small batches! When I am baking indoors and not using a cloche I typically use a pie pan full of holes, containing ice, over a cast iron skillet containing lava rocks. That would also work pretty well.

You probably saw it, but Brickie tried using a stainless bowl as a cloche and got promising results. That might work well with some of your trays as an alternative to ice if you want to try something different. (Just put the loaf on tray, place the bowl over it, put it in the oven, and pull the bowl out about 15 minutes later.)

As an aside, I think the more casual approach to bread is great. My bread reputation all but forces (okay encourages) me to be really picky and perfectionist. It is rewarding for me both intellectually (problem solving) and publicly. I am a big believer in "whatever works" or is "satisfying".

Thanks!
Jay

[david s]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

Thanks for your wisdom Jay. I have to admit that I'm a lazy kind of bread baker. In my small oven I usually only do a few loaves. Because I can't be bothered to clean the oven out properly I tend to leave a few coals and ash behind. That is one reason for using trays. Another reason I use the trays is that I shape my bread after removing the dough from my bread maker (dough setting) another lazy mans way of doing it, then place the shaped dough onto the trays to prove. This has the advantage of not having to disturb the risen dough to place in the oven.One more reason is that I often find that the floor is too hot and the trays seem to take the sting out of the oven preventing burnt and ash covered bottoms. You are correct in observing that the sides and bottom were a little under done. The darker tops, which I like are partly caused by the cheese on the top, the oil contained in it tends to promote more caramelization. Frankly, I'm not too fussy with my bread, they all taste pretty good to me, but thanks for your response it is most helpful.

Dave

[texassourdough]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

I went back through this thread and have a couple of comments that may be useful to some of you.

Kebwi was right, by 15 pounds of dough I meant roughly 7 2-pound loaves. In practice when I bake in the WFO I usually have four different kinds of loaves and usually include a really wet dough like ciabata which I load first to help humidify the oven. The breads get removed at different times as they finish.

WRT baking times, I bake in a tempered oven that has equalized for at least 45 minute to an hour. My oven is relatively uniform in temp (though the dome will be about 25 degrees warmer than the hearth). I suspect the baking time gap is a function of both the oven temp and the fact I bake my breads harder (higher internal temperature) than most of you.

David S's idea of throwing ice in the oven will work and is probably a good idea for small batches but if you fully load the oven with dough the dough itself will release plenty of water vapor and give good humidity in a sealed oven.

While I am confident David S's bread tastes good it illustrates a couple of traits I try to avoid and illustrate part of why I don't bake in a dirty (ashy) WFO. First, the top of the loaves are unevenly caramelized in a way that implies the dome was too hot. Offhand I don't know if David had coals in the oven but that tends to have the dome too hot relative to the hearth and I personally don'ta aspire to that crust look.

The second trait is that the sides of the loaves are pale. This tends to happen when loaves are too close together, the hearth is cool, or the loaves are insulated from the hearth. In this case it appears David baked the bread on metal sheets/bread forms. It is common for the sides and bottom to be a bit lighter than the top, but for me the contrast on these loaves is greater than I prefer. NOTE: in my experience even a sheet of parchment significantly lightens the bottom and sides of a loaf and the metal pans do also. As a result, when I have to use parchment for unruly loaves I strive to pull the parchment after ten minutes or so to get the bread in contact with the hearth/stone. While I have bread pans/trays and use them occasionally, again I prefer direct contact with the hearth. I personally would rather clean the hearth and bake directly on the hearth.

It is important to recognize that I my comments should not be taken as a statement that "I am right!" or "David is wrong!". It was simply that David's loaves illustrated some characteristics that I perhaps incorrectly associate with certain baking practices and produce the characteristics I describe. We all bring different values to our bread baking and I would be the first to recognize that making great bread in small batches in a WFO is not easy!

Hope these comments are helpful and fill in a few holes in the discussion!
Jay

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

David: thanks for posting those great loaves pictures. I'll try the ice cube method too someday.

Russell, it would seem to me that the terra cotta dish, even with hot water would take too long to impart much moisture. I would try getting it hot 1st, but I don't know if it would crack. Maybe not, but in any event, My methode:

I keep a "sprayer" in my ovens wood storage side compartment that is used just for water only. I bought it new for this just to make sure it was never used for pesticides or fertilizer in the past.

I load my loaves (I remove all coals, brush with small damp mop, close the door for 10 minutes to re-distribute heat) then load the bread, put my door halfway on, then stick the metal sprayer nozzle in and spray the dome top or opposite side of loaves, get it really steamy and pull it out then shut the door.

This way (similar to Davids) the blast of steam is at the beginning of the bake where you want it and lessens as it bakes.

In my home oven I use Peter Reinharts method of putting a heavy shallow frypan on the oven floor for 10 minutes so its really hot and after I insert my loaves on the baking stone, I pour in 1.5 cups of boiling water in it, slam the door shut, then use a spray bottle at 30 second intervals (3 times only) for more quick steam then leave it alone until breads done.

This is great thread with lots of good ideas. Thanks, Dino

[david s]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

It takes ages for the water to produce steam that way and you really want the steam at the beginning of the bake. For this reason I go for the ice cubes thrown on the floor just before putting in the bread. I don't always remove all of the coals, but most of them so there is room for the bread and so you don't get ash all over them.
Here are a couple of baguettes and another small loaf I just removed from the oven. One for the neighbours and the rest for us.

[OzOvenBuilder]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

Loading the oven with bread will drop the temp in the oven dramatically as will spraying it with water to raise the humidity.

Hi Jay, thanks for the excellent info...I recall reading elsewhere (can't find the thread now!), when baking bread, they would place a small terra cotta dish on the floor of the oven with a little water in it, and were getting excellent results. I assume they would just pop it in when putting the loaves in, this would then take a few minutes to get to steam after shutting the door. Sounds like a good idea, have you tried this or heard of anyone's success and/or failures??

Cheers,

Russell.

[david s]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

I'm with you Splatgirl. I usually remove half the leftover coals. If you place your bread directly on the floor then you don't want ash all over the bottom of the bread. I found that I was burning the bottom of my bread doing this so I now cook my bread on trays. I usually only cook one or two loaves anyway. Cooking on trays keeps the bottom of the loaves clean (don't worry about ash on the floor) and, so long as the bread is not too close to some left over coals it cooks evenly. Cleaning the oven out is way too much trouble for a couple of loaves IMO. I also use about 4 ice cubes on the oven floor for steam when I place the bread in the oven. They immediately begin producing steam. Works well for me.

[SableSprings]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

I am basically more than happy to try to avoid "work" and like Splat girl (post 9) have done good loaves with ash around the inside oven perimeter. Eventually I decided--that although the bread tasted great--the ash that always ended up on the loaves just wasn't what I wanted as a trademark. I've also posted elsewhere that I tried leaving a chunk of smoldering wood in the oven (cause I was trying to avoid work) and found (as Jay noted) the resulting loaves of bread picked up a strong and distasteful smoke flavor/odor. As Dino (post 10) noted, there is a great advantage to having all your oven space available for placing your loaves. Jay (TexasSourdough in post 7) certainly covered all the physical issues with leaving coals & ash in during a bake.

I now brush as much of the coals and ash out as I can, then I use my 4' section of 1/2" copper tube to lightly blow the hearth surface clear of ash. The advantage to this method is that when the hearth ash gets "blown up", the majority of it comes back out the opening and moves up & out the chimney with the heat pulse.

The best thing any of us can do (IMO), is to take the time to make a temperature profile for firing and using your oven. Use the IR temp gun to take hourly readings on both the hearth and dome during heating and through baking. You'll certainly gain a lot of understanding about how much fire your oven takes to get fully heat loaded...and as Jay said, that's critical to consistent success using the oven.

I now know that my oven takes about 4 hours of +600F to load it for a bake of 25-30 loaves. My 1-1.5 pound loaves take 20 minutes baking 4 to 5 loaves at a time.

Hope this helps a bit.

[mrchipster]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

I have a wireless thermometer made by Oregon scientific that has a 48 inch probe wire and broadcasts the signal up to 100 ft.

The only major complaint I have about the design is that you cannot turn iff the beep when the probe reaches over temp and it is designed for meat so the highest setting is 180f.

I am thinking if going inside to disable the beeper.

AW129 | Wireless BBQ Thermometer | Thermometers | Weather | Oregon Scientific Official Online Store | USA

Chip

It appears that they have developed a better model for us

http://us.oregonscientific.com/cat-Weather-sub-Thermometers-prod-Grill-Right-Wireless-Talking-BBQ-Oven-Thermometer.html

Higher temp and the beeper shuts off.

[david lyons]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

Jay
Very concise and practical article. Have kept for further reference; oven base just about complete and mouth already watering.
Thanks
Dave Ly

[egalecki]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

I baked bread once when I still had coals in. I didn't like the odd flavor I got. Smoked is good for lots of things, but not bread.

I almost never have to go 50 minutes to cook a loaf (mine run about 1.5 to 2 pounds, mostly). Most of them cook in about 20 to 25.

This winter, when I was forced to bake mostly inside (I'll post pics later of my oven reclamation, but let's just say that the winter has NOT been kind) I would load the oven with a baking stone on the top shelf and a rack lined with quarry tiles on the bottom and heat it up as far as I can go- about 500. Then I'd put in my bread, steam the oven (hot water in a pan that preheated while the oven did) and set the timer for 10 minutes. When it goes off, I turn the loaves end for end and then I put the probe of my oven thermometer (the kind with the metal cord) in and set the temp for 205- usually it goes off in another 10 to 15 minutes.

While I know that it's heresy to poke a hole in my bread that way, it works pretty well, and after the first 10 minutes, the crust is set and I haven't had one deflate on me yet. I just wish I had a thermometer that had a really really long cord on it for using outside!

RT, even practice loaves from a novice usually taste better than store bread. If you want to try it, get Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice and read. My sister in law bought it last year after eating my bread and has gotten herself into it! Hamelman's Bread is good too, but I think Reinhart's is a little easier for a novice to read. I think Bread is more like a text book. I also have Whole Grain Breads, but I recommend Apprentice first.

you could also try out the no-knead breads. I have a couple of recipes I use for that, it's easy and turns out well. PM me if you want them.

[kebwi]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

Thanks a ton for all the great information. I will certainly try cleaning out my oven for bread once I get the necessary tools (large metal dustbin, perhaps from a converted stop-sign ) and some sort of receptacle, a metal box which I simply having nothing to stand in for yet.

However, one thing you said thoroughly confused me...

After about 50 minutes the bread should be done (assuming one to two pound loaves in a 15 pound bake...
Jay

First, may I assume that "15 pound bake" means total dough, as in 7 2lb or 15 1lb loaves? Is that what 15 pound bake means?

My confusion arises from the fact that the FB bread book says 2lb bread should cook in like 22 minutes and 1lb bread should cook in 12 minutes (p. 10). Do you have any idea why there is such a discrepancy here, more than a factor of two?

At any rate, thanks again for the thorough explanation. I'm really excited to try bread and want to do it right.

Cheers!

[RTflorida]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

Jay,
AWSOME, direct, to the point, and in terms that a chickenshzzt non baker like myself understand. ALMOST makes me want to give bread a shot, ALMOST.
Just can't break myself of my mantra - I cook, and cook very well; why ruin everthing by trying to bake?
A couple more meaningful post like that and some nut in Texas will be getting a knock at his door by some other nut from FL insisting he be taught every thing and any thing about bread baking. Jay can I volunteer to be the breadmakers apprentice?

RT

[kebwi]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

Wow, this is my own thread and I totally dropped the ball on it. I need to back and read all this great information.

Thanks everyone.

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Why necessary to clean all coals out for bread?

Boy, I sure learn a lot on this forum. Thanks for the info Jay.

Maybe there's something going on with my method of frantically sliding my loaves in the oven and putting my ugly (but tight ) door on but I only had to do that once to get ash all over my loaves to get me to clean out my oven now every time. Also, when I sprayed my oven with the garden sprayer to create moisture, the sudden steam made the ash fly too.

I completely understand Splatgirls MO and have no doubt I'll occasionally be doing the same thing , I can't explain well enough how nice it was to spend the 2 minutes to clean out the oven, then have a huge, clean canvas to bake in, anywhere in the oven I chose to throw the loaves. If I felt like slamming my oven door on, I didn't have to worry about the pressure moving the ash.

I say, leave in the ash and coals for nestling your artichokes into, but try to remove it for baking.