Today's Bread!

[Pdiff]

Re: Today's Bread!

"The amount of water I want on my hands is about the same as you would have if you washed your hands, and then did a crappy enough job drying them off that if you were to shake hands with someone you'd proabably get a dirty look. "

Ha! Ha! That's great .... and exactly right too! Now I'll be thinking about that every time I work with dough (or shake hands :-) )

[Breadjunkie]

Re: Today's Bread!

You guys are great!

I'll try a hotter oven. Also, to deal with wetter dough I have used flour on the board and my hands. After reading Bill's comments I'll try the hands wet method and get more aggressive in the forming part. Since I only bake a loaf at a time, ( only two of us eating bread here) I don't weigh loaves. I do understand the value of weighing, however.

This last loaf is eating real well, but yes I can see that a higher level is achievable.

Sorry to be hijacking your thread, Jay.

Regards,

Joe

[texassourdough]

Re: Today's Bread!

Hi Joe!

Fragility is a sign of underdeveloped or overproofed dough. Underdeveloped simply doesn't have the gluten organized enough to contain the gas, overproofed and the gas has moved from the dough to the holes and that tends to accompany deflation.

A more normal temp for loading bread is in the 550 - 575 range. Leaving it in longer will raise the internal temp (or should) but it won't necessarily give you a darker loaf. I am a dark loaf person and I like internal temp of 210 or so (on wet, lean doughs). I would rather bake fast than long.

You would be horrified to see how vigorously we deflated dough at SFBI and still made airy, open baguettes.

Great posting on dough handling, Bill! Agreed, learning to scale loaves - especially when baking in volume - is a big help on consistency.

Hang in there Joe, dough handling can take time. Especially if you get intimidated by the dough. Don't sweat it too much. Even crappy looking loaves (and you are doing better than that) can taste a LOT better than most of the breadcrap you can buy.

Jay

[WJW]

Re: Today's Bread!

Joe...you've got the idea now...now you're fine-tuning.

If the loafs are deflating your dough could probably use more development to build up that network of gluten fibers needed to trap that CO2. How much S&F'ing are you doing?

I don't know if what I am doing is ideal, but my loaves are not deflating at all now that I have my S&F's down. The dough doesn't deflate when form loaves, the loaves don't deflate when I flip them out of the bannetons, and they don't deflate when I slash. They used to deflate when I did all those things.

Working with approximately twenty pounds of dough, I do two or three S&F's right after I add salt (About 30 minutes after initial mixing). After that first set of S&F's I do it again forty-five minutes later. Then another two (maybe three, depending...) forty-five minutes later. Up until now I'm not being the least bit gentle with the dough. Reallly stretching it. Flattening it out. Working it almost to the point of tearing at times. But at around the 2-2.5 hour point, the dough is starting to get pretty light and airy so I start taking it easy on the dough. Still doing S&F, but gently...and usually only one...maybe two. So I'll do one typically around the 2.5 hour point...and maybe, or maybe not...at just before the three hour point.. I then let it alone for thirty minutes before individual loaf formation. I am usually doing loaf formation after between 3.25 and 4.0 hours of bulk fermentation...depending on the temp in my kitchen. (I try to keep the temp around 77.)

That's my schedule...how many S&F's I do is dependent on the way the dough is developing. I've never counted, but I'd guess that over the course of the bulk ferment I do somewhere between 8-12 S&F's all together.

I don't know if that's right, but it is working for me.

As far as loaf formation, it helps to have a bench knife. It helps to have a scale handy if you are doing a bunch of loaves. Weighing one every so often helps me keep things in line.

The key for me is managing the amount of moisture on my hands, on the "skin", and on the counter top while forming loaves. Too much and you can't seal the loaf very easily...too little and the dough sticks to everything in sight. I keep a small bowl of water right on the counter. I keep my fingers moving quickly as I'm stretching the skin and pinching it shut. I put a bit of water on the counter and smear it around with my hands...so it's just moist...no big droplets...then I touch (not wipe or dry) my fingers to a damp towel. The amount of water I want on my hands is about the same as you would have if you washed your hands, and then did a crappy enough job drying them off that if you were to shake hands with someone you'd proabably get a dirty look. Wet, but not dripping. You want the dough to grab your fingers a little so you can stretch the skin, but not to the point that it won't easily release so that you can continue rotating the dough ball and stretching skin.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but that's what I do.

Bill

[Breadjunkie]

Re: Today's Bread!

Thanks for the critique. Loaf shaping has been hard for me to master. I've watched hours of videos but still struggle with it. Sooner or later it'll happen.

I started with the oven at 500 then down to 425. It could have stayed in a little longer as the internal temp was just over 200. I normally slash but didn't this time. My previous slashes deflated the loaf. Next time I'll tighten the loaf and slash.
Tight lines Jay,

Joe

[texassourdough]

Re: Today's Bread!

Good call, Bill! Oven temp is definitely low.

Crumb looks much better (nice!) and it has fair to good spring - but not quite as much as I would expect - suggesting it still needs a bit shorter proof. That said, I get the impression it was a rather flat (slack) loaf which could suggest better loaf formation would help. A tighter skin is good! Agree, it looks unslashed and that too will help the loaf look normal. There is still room for some improvement in this area but it is hard to know which element is the key... My bet is a combination of loaf formation and slashing.

Glad we helped!
Jay

[WJW]

Re: Today's Bread!

Very cool!

Looks good. Nice crumb.

Are you slashing? Temps still looks like its relatively low. 500 at loading temp maybe? I've been trying to get a bit darker but I guess that's a preference thing. Looks delicious.

Bill

[Breadjunkie]

Re: Today's Bread!

Jay, Burntfingers, and Bill,

Well, you guys were right on the money! I fed the barm beasties lavishly, shortened the BF and proofed for three hours without a retard in the fridge.

Voila! Maybe not the best loaf that could be but a damn sight better than my last few. Now I can tweak the recipe and see if I can make it even better.

Thanks again,

Joe

[texassourdough]

Re: Today's Bread!

When I don't use a cloche I use pumice in a cast iron skilet - both preheated. And that approach can definitely give good crusts. The cloche is just a bit "easier". It is amazing how many different methods work for humidifying the oven! And different people get success in different ways!

Thanks!
Jay

[TropicalCoasting]

Re: Today's Bread!

.

It's not magic. The key is trapping the humidity from the dough so you really gelatinize the crust and get both great oven spring and crust. It is really hard to get the same result in a big empty oven (with only a couple of loaves). Oven humidification methods abound but in my experience the cloche method is the only thing that approximates a WFO.

Hope that helps!
Jay

I have an old roasting tray full of volcanic rocks(Krakatoan pumice its still floats around on our beach) sitting in my oven it gets a few cups of water in it as the loves go in.
My crusts are good.

[texassourdough]

Re: Today's Bread!

Thanks, Joe...

40 plus 40/40 is not enough food! Your starter should more than use that up in 8 to 10 hours. 20 plus 40/40 would be a better ratio. And it should be peaking the next morning in say 10 to 12 hours. Your total time for the final dough is awfully long. Six hours is a very long bulk ferment at room temp. I would cut that in half - maybe even to two hours if you are going to add a retard too. My personal starter doesn't particularly like retards and has a hard time getting going again after being cold. But it does get a significant amount of expansion in the fridge before it gets too cold. You could probably do okay with a two hour bulk, form the loaf, retard, and give it only a two or three hour proof out of the fridge. Remember...my total time from mixing final dough to baking is typically only six or seven hours... My schedule gives you four hours at room temp and the fridge is probably worth at least two to three so it should be okay...

And don't worry about being super gentle with dough. If you have it adquately developed and properly proofed it can be amazingly resilient. (Though spelt doesn't help the resiliency!) Shaping loaves need not be super gentle. You need to get tension and that takes some roughness.

Let us know how it works!
Jay

[Breadjunkie]

Re: Today's Bread!

Thanks to all for the responses. I think over proofing is definitely a possibility even though my proofing time is usually about 3 to 4 hours. However, I should explain my whole process. I start by taking about 40 grams of starter, feeding it with 40 gr of flour and water. ( I am using a spelt starter) I let this build over night at room temp. Next I make a sponge (preferment?) using 100 gr of this and 100 gr spelt flour and 50 gr water. When this has doubled in volume I make the dough using AP flour, water, salt, and a tsp of diastatic malt powder. I keep it fairly wet and sticky. After kneading for about 10 minutes I let it ferment until it has doubled. Usually about 6 hours. The temperature here lately in my kitchen has been in the high 60's. Then I gently transfer it to the board and fold it into a loaf and place it in a banneton trying not to degas in the process. This goes immediately into the fridge. In the morning I remove it and let it proof for the 3 or 4 hours. I preheat the oven to 500 deg and then lower it to 450 when I put the loaf in. It bakes on a stone under a roasting pan for 15 minutes then finishes uncovered.
I have noticed that it does expand in the fridge so maybe a shorter proof time after it comes out will solve my problem. I guess I should try skipping the final retard and just go directly to proof and bake.
Thanks Jay for the suggestion to under proof to see where I'm at. That's a good idea. One thing I have learned is if it's not working you have to change something!

Thanks again to all. What a great resource we have here.

Joe

[texassourdough]

Re: Today's Bread!

As others said, almost certainly overproofed. Loaf forming has minor effects but...almost certainly overproofed.

Another factor which SHOULD be mentioned is your hearth/stone temp. Since you are working on a WFO I presume you are baking in an oven. The stone needs to be well heated. I allow an hour and I often heat the stone to temps above my baking temp - 475 to 500 when I will bake at 440 to 455. It does invite errors of resetting the temp but it also tends to give just a bit more oven spring. An underheated stone will not give good spring.

You don't mention times, but a healthy, robust sourdough starter using about a 4 to 1 expansion in the final expansion (water and flour totals 4 times the weight of the preferment) will typically need about 3 hours of bulk ferment and about 3 to 5 hours of proofing. Try cutting your proof time by a third or even half. And shorten your bulk if it is over three hours or you have a warm proofing area. (in Port Townsend???? ) The reason to change it a lot is to help you learn what underproofing does. Once you are on both sides of the proof you want, you cn interpolate and get a lot closer.

One last comment. Consistency really pays with sourdough. Making sure your starter is really robust (I often feed in the morning before I make my preferment (and sometimes twice by feeding the evening before that) This way the yeast is really active when I mix my final dough! If you aren't weighing, do so. Consistency makes sourdough a lot more predictable!

Good Luck!
Jay

[WJW]

Re: Today's Bread!

Breadjunkie,

Sounds like overproofing. If your bread is not expanding significantly upon being placed in the oven (even with no slash at all), that sounds like over proofed bread to me.

What is the time line on your bulk fermment and loaf proof time? If you are over four and a half hours (all in) at 75 degrees or better...you are likely over proofed.

Hopefully Jay, Faith, or Chris will chime in.

As always...need photos to get the full picture.

Bill

[BurntFingers]

Re: Today's Bread!

I am no expert but sometimes when we let it proof too long that happens. So I would watch the timing of the final proof and avoid handling the loaf to roughly before putting it into the oven.