Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

[azatty]

With all my traveling over the summer, I killed my culture by neglect--didn't feed it properly, started getting sick and fuzzy, I tried to revive it, but couldn't and decided the humane thing was to euthanize it.

With temperatures finally dropping below 100 degrees, I'm more interested in working in front of a hot oven, so I ordered another batch from Sourdough International. I started the activation sequence. Initial activation at 90 degrees for 24 hours, then feed and hold around 70 degrees for 12-ish hours. At 24 hours it had bubbled up, but hadn't doubled. After the first feeding, it had grown a bit, but not doubled. It has a good smell; nothing like the nasty funkishness I experienced the first time I activated the same culture.

Yesterday evening (2 days into the activation) the starter was looking flat and sluggish. There were several bubbles, but very little rise. This morning the starter is totally flat. Still no fuzzies or bad smell on it, though. So I dumped half, fed it, and stuck it in the AC unit closet (maintains about 70 degrees reliably--I have strange places to proof dough). I suppose I'll see how it's doing tonight.

Last time I used this culture (Camaldoli), it activated quickly and responded with vigorous growth. So what do you think--am I just dealing with the vagaries of the wee beasties, or do I have problems? And when should I start worrying?

Edit: One more detail: the starter has been getting thin. I have to confess that I didn't weigh my flour and water; I went off volume. This morning it was about as thin as pancake batter, which was odd since it wasn't so thin last night. I discarded and firmed it up, so it's more like a really wet dough this morning.

[Laurentius]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

The first rule is to follow the directions. The proper ratio of flour to water is important. You see the do it "my way" approach can cost you time and money. Once you master the basic, then you can experiment.

[SCChris]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

What I'm hearing sounds like your sourdough starter is eating up everything before you get back to it.. In warm weather my starter matures in about 6 to 8 hours and since I leave for work at 6 and get home at 4:30, I'm about 3 to 5 hours late. The 100% hydrated starter that was the consistency of a thick banana bread dough is now the consistency of crepe batter. Try feeding it every 6 hours and start with cold filtered or bottled water and see where this takes things..

Chris

Oh and try to keep the temps in the 70 - 80F area..

[azatty]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

I followed the directions (which are given in volume, not weight) to the letter. Unfortunately, the culture did not appear to respond in the manner described in the directions. Also, it does not appear that the culture is contaminated. It's not the end of the world, but it puts me behind on a test bake.

Thanks for the suggestion, Chris. I thought it might be possible that it was falling after feeding, but I'm accustomed to seeing SOME kind of growth when I get home. What you describe matches the scenario I'm seeing. It has been 11 hours since the last feeding, and one jar is flat, while the other is showing that some growth has occurred. Both have plenty of bubbles, although the sour smell isn't nearly as prominent as it was earlier. I'll feed it again now and check it in six hours.

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

That is quite normal for the first few days after activation. Just keep feeding it at regular intervals and it will soon pick up to what you expect.

[azatty]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

Thanks, Faith. It's a bit unnerving because the Camaldoli really took off fast the first time I used that strain.

[SCChris]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

Azatty, keep us in the loop about where things end up.

Thanks

Chris

[azatty]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

I fed it around 6:00 yesterday evening and left it on the counter. The starter temperature was around 72 degrees (measured with IR gun), and I left it on the counter. Interior house temperature is 78 on the nose. I checked it at 8:30 pm and 11:00 pm, and didn't see any growth, but saw bubbles.

This morning at 6:00 I checked it and found about 1/4" of hooch on both jars, crepe-ish consistency, and only a few bubbles. The sour smell is fainter than it was yesterday, but still no bad smells or fuzzies. I tasted the starter, and it's pleasantly sour, although kind of floury tasting. I stirred in the hooch, fed each jar 6 oz of flour and 6 oz of water (about 1 cup flour, 2/3-ish cup water). The temperature after feeding is 82 degrees (a bit high), so I put it in the A/C closet where it will proof at a lower temperature.

The presence of hooch tells me that I have live yeast. It may also be an indication that the starter is rising, and the hooch is leaching out after the starter overproofs and falls. (Is that a correct hypothesis?) So it's entirely possible that the starter has gone ninja on me and sneakily rises in the middle of the night then quickly falls. I'm only four days into the activation, and the directions say 3-5 days for full activation (although my first use of the culture produced fast results).

I also wonder whether the starter has become too acidic, and yeast growth is being inhibited.

[SCChris]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

Keep the regular feeding up. Try just before bed, and when you get up in the morning, and when you first get home from work. This should avoid the ninja situation of getting up and running and falling before you see its glory.. Once you get some confirmation that you have a good batch and it has time to settle in, you could back off on the amount of starter that you start each batch with. I run 100g of water 100g of 50/50 flour and about 40g of starter, 20% of the weight of the replacement water/flour. I don't have any guidence on what % is OK, but the idea is that it takes more time for the colony to eat what you provide, maybe Faith has some insight..

Chris

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

Keep feeding, if you have bubbles you are good. It sounds like your not getting the rise your looking for because you have crape like batter...the bubbles are just bleeding off at the top. Try increasing your flour till you get to a muffin batter thickness and see how that goes. Let me know how that works. The increase in flour will also help if your acid is increasing.

Chris, if that mix works for you then it's all OK. I use a 1:1:1 for my feeding but I also let is set in the fridge for a week. Work is getting in the way of my baking so my starter is starting to feel lonely.

[WJW]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

Once you get up and going again with one you like you might consider preserving some. As an experiment, I have frozen a sample of mine, kept it in the freezer for six weeks, and then revived it. It took about three days of steady feeding to bring it up to full activity, but at the end of that period it was indistinguishable from my original starter.


I have also spread a sample out on wax paper, dried it for a day, and then folded and frozen. That has been sitting in the freezer for about ten weeks. I haven't tried to revive that yet, but will soon.

It's a pretty easy way to preserve your starter for just such a disaster... you have the added benefit of preserving exactly the starter you like.

Bill

[azatty]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

The starter is relatively firm after I feed it, but reaches the crepe batter consistency by the next feed cycle. Last night I added less water because I thought the starter might be too wet to rise. It was probably on the wet side of muffin batter. This morning it still hasn't risen, but it has some large bubbles on the top and the starter has a thicker consistency.

[C5dad]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

I always do mine 50:50 by weight water and flour. After a couple hours on the counter - into the fridge (upper shelf) it goes! I neglect my starter all the time and it comes back.

My suggestion - toss all but about a tablespoon and feed it the mix above. Wait 4 hours until it is frothy and about doubled in size (+/-) then toss it in over night to allow the bacteria to balance out the yeast. Repeat several times and you should be good to go.

If not - let me know and I will get you a transplant of my starter (the 1850's version).

No stress - it is just us dough heads!

Chris

[C5dad]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

Your last post is indicative of over fermenting. If the starter is thin, stringy... too much counter time - need more fridge time after allowing to warm up! Get it to the bubbling phase and cool it down. This will retard the yeast and the bacteria will get into balance. It is a high wire act keeping these cultures moving in the right direction. Check out any of Peter Reinharts discussions on wild yeast breads

[azatty]

Re: Starter is flat--talk me off the ledge

The saga continues...

Yesterday I decided to triage the Camaldoli. I have two jars of it going. After a feeding cycle, neither showed any bubbles, had any smell (good or bad), and showed no activity whatsoever. I gave up on one jar and left it on the counter for later disposal (was too lazy yesterday to clean out the jar). I didn't feed it; I left it to starve. I discarded and fed the second jar, and put it in the AC closet. After 12 hours (and more than 5 days into the activation), the second jar showed no signs of life, no bubbles, no smell. So I decided to wash it. I washed the culture in the second jar per instructions, fed it, and put it back in my proofer (Excalibur dehydrator) per instructions along with an Ischia Island culture I started yesterday morning as a backup.

This morning I went to the kitchen to get the feed ready for the Ischia culture, and I happened to look at the abandoned jar. It showed a small bit of growth. I discarded the vast majority of it and fed it a cup of 100% hydration mix. This evening I came home to a nicely grown starter, and it kept growing for the hour between my arrival and the feeding. Two hours later, the neglected jar has puffed up an inch (about 50% rise). I have a guarded, but positive, outlook for the jar.

I just fed the washed culture and I put it back in the AC closet with the Ischia. The washed culture had a great showing of bubbles (though not much rise) and a strong alcohol smell. The beasties are obviously at work. Good sour smell on it, too.

So I think the starter is on the road to recovery. Thanks for all your input.

And I might take you up on the 1850 culture offer, Chris. I've been meaning to get some of that one. Perhaps I can trade you a jar of the stuff I'm working on now so that I'll have a local backup if I kill it off again.