Firing just for bread

[WJW]

Re: Firing just for bread

Thanks Faith. That's good info. I knew that I was having better luck with firing the night before, hadn't come up with the tidbit about averaging the two temps to get my target. I'll have to see how that works on my set up.

I also like Chris' info about the migrating fire. It seems like I could stack logs running the length of the oven, light 'em up and I'd get relatively even heating over night. Obviously, I'd need to do another fire in the morning, but it's probably be better than just pusing the fire to the back and going to sleep.

Bill

[WJW]

Re: Firing just for bread

Another thing Faith...

A few of us are kicking around the idea of a bread-head conclave. I have offered my place up as a location. I realize Southern California is a long way from Virginia, but I want to throw out a clear invitation to you and your significant other to join in if you are so inclined. Maybe you have family out this way...maybe you want to go to Disneyland, Central Cal Wine Country...whatever. We have plenty of room...guesthouse, beer, wine, and firewood on me. Mi casa su casa.

For any and all other hearthbread forum regular contributers...all are welcome...if and when we get a date set I'll put it out there and would love nothing more than to host a massive bread-head conclave. Hell, if the demand is there, we'll put some temporary ovens together made of firebrick and have multiple ovens to cook in. Nice, reasonable lodging available (Holiday Inn Express/Hamptons Inn) within a mile of my house. We bake some bread for a weekend, drink some vino, and do a couple of huge Tri-Tip BBQ's

Bill

[mrchipster]

Re: Firing just for bread

Another thing Faith...

A few of us are kicking around the idea of a bread-head conclave. I have offered my place up as a location. I realize Southern California is a long way from Virginia, but I want to throw out a clear invitation to you and your significant other to join in if you are so inclined. Maybe you have family out this way...maybe you want to go to Disneyland, Central Cal Wine Country...whatever. We have plenty of room...guesthouse, beer, wine, and firewood on me. Mi casa su casa.

For any and all other hearthbread forum regular contributers...all are welcome...if and when we get a date set I'll put it out there and would love nothing more than to host a massive bread-head conclave. Hell, if the demand is there, we'll put some temporary ovens together made of firebrick and have multiple ovens to cook in. Nice, reasonable lodging available (Holiday Inn Express/Hamptons Inn) within a mile of my house. We bake some bread for a weekend, drink some vino, and do a couple of huge Tri-Tip BBQ's

Bill

Bill,

What about us bread head wana bees that have not mastered the art but are in the serious practicing stage? I would be very interested in attending.

Chip

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Firing just for bread

Thanks Bill, What a generous offer. The conclave sounds interesting let me know if it comes to fruition. It does sound like fun.

After today I'm not sure that I'm qualified to attend. Work and personal projects have prevented me from doing any baking. Today the sky opened up and rained so I got day off and did a small bake. I used the house oven because outside was not fit for man or beast. Lets just say not my best bread ever...but it will eat.

Good news is I got to use my new kitchen/baking room for the first time today. The only thing left to do is hook up the sink. Even with a substandard bake it was nice to use my new baking space.

[WJW]

Re: Firing just for bread

Chip and Faith...

Like I said...All regular contributors are welcome. As far as mastering this stuff...I'm so far from that it's not even funny. I baked my first loaf of sourdough in May or June. I'd love to see varying skill levels present to share ideas and learn. Like I said...all are welcome. I'll provide eats, drinks, firewood, and an oven. Maybe a temporary oven as well if needed.

Before I get in over my head...let's cap it at ten bakers. Up to twenty to thirty can come and party, swim, drink, and eat BBQ...but our baking capacity will be limited by kitchen space and oven capacity.

I'm getting stoked over this. There is actually some interest. Let's make this happen.


Bill

P.S.: Faith...very cool on the baking room/kitchen! We have a little guest house on our property with its own kitchen. That's my "baking room". It's nice to have a separate space to bake big batches in.

[Abouna]

Re: Firing just for bread

OK, we did our first bread bake yesterday................not too good

It was a straight french bread dough. I started with the oven at 350 or so the morning after a pizza bake. I'm a little disappointed that it wasn't hotter from the previous evening. I guess maybe even with all the insulation the low temps at night were a bit much (around 40)?

Anyway, we wanted to put this bread in at 11am so I did a small fire about 9am and got the temp into the 450 range at the dome. The loaves baked fine but had no holes, they turned out too uniform, more like sandwich bread. The crust was indeed better than in the house though.

My thinking is that we didn't have enough heat, 500 at the side walls would probably have been better and given us a more aggressive rise resulting in more hole formation and more stretch? My father is the baker and he said the loaves didn't swell enough. Again, not enough heat?

Anyway, we're going to fire it again in the morning for a ciabatta, I'm going to fire it at 9am for an 11am bake and go for more heat.

What say you all?

PS- I made a huge mistake and was too lazy to rake out the last of the coals, after putting the door on we ended up making a lot of smoke which gave the bread a BBQ flavor. It wasn't bad, but certainly not what you want.

[mrchipster]

Re: Firing just for bread

OK, we did our first bread bake yesterday................not too good

It was a straight french bread dough. I started with the oven at 350 or so the morning after a pizza bake. I'm a little disappointed that it wasn't hotter from the previous evening. I guess maybe even with all the insulation the low temps at night were a bit much (around 40)?

Anyway, we wanted to put this bread in at 11am so I did a small fire about 9am and got the temp into the 450 range at the dome. The loaves baked fine but had no holes, they turned out too uniform, more like sandwich bread. The crust was indeed better than in the house though.

My thinking is that we didn't have enough heat, 500 at the side walls would probably have been better and given us a more aggressive rise resulting in more hole formation and more stretch? My father is the baker and he said the loaves didn't swell enough. Again, not enough heat?

Anyway, we're going to fire it again in the morning for a ciabatta, I'm going to fire it at 9am for an 11am bake and go for more heat.

What say you all?

PS- I made a huge mistake and was too lazy to rake out the last of the coals, after putting the door on we ended up making a lot of smoke which gave the bread a BBQ flavor. It wasn't bad, but certainly not what you want.

I think you are right about the heat needing to be a little higher and the coals in the oven would tend to dry the air and you want a nice moist environment for the bread.

You did not say how many pounds of bread went in but I am guessing not much if you dod not even rake out the oven.

Did you run a damp mop or rag over the floor 30 minutes before the bake?

I also spray the oven just after putting in the dough to aid in the spring.

Chip

[WJW]

Re: Firing just for bread

I think your problem is proof time. Lack of oven spring (or as you refer to it "swell"), is usually indicative of being over proofed.

When you put dough on hot masonry, various things happen. The Co2 in in your dough comes out of solution and forms bubbles. The already existing bubbles expand and form bigger bubbles. The water in the dough forms vapor and adds to the bubbles...all of this adds to a more open crumb.

If the dough is over-proofed the yeast have already consumed most of the carbs and much of the co2 has already left the dough before you put it in the oven. There is very little co2 left in solution to suddenly pop out and turn gasseous to form large bubbles.

I think your temps were too low...and I have very little idea as to how well your oven was loaded with heat to maintain temps through the bake...and you probably needed some steam in there to improve loaf color...but I think your biggest problem was that you were over-proofed.

But bottom line...need pics of crust and crumb to have a better idea.

Hopefully those with more knowledge than I will chime in.

It's fun..enjoy it. Congrats on your first bake.

Bill

[Abouna]

Re: Firing just for bread

OK, we'll try again this morning.

A couple items I neglected to mention:

- I did mop out an hour before baking
- I sprayed with a mister bottle for 10 sec. 10 min. before bake
- I sprayed for 10 sec. immediately after putting the dough in

My father is of the opinion that I may have added too much water.

[WJW]

Re: Firing just for bread

The water you put in a hour before and 10 minutes before, was long since gone by the time you put the loaves in. The water you sprayed ten seconds before was mostly gone.

I'm just learning this stuff, but it's pretty clear to me that the only way you'll keep enough steam in the oven to make a significant impact is to either: 1) put enough dough in the oven to keep steam levels up from the water contained in the dough...say ten pounds of dough or more; or 2) Take a cast iron pan with a layer of BBQ type lava rocks on the bottom. Put the pan in the oven ten minutes before the loaves go in. Immediately before putting the loaves in, place five or six ice cubes on top of the lava rocks. Close the door tightly so that there is a decent seal.

When I am baking I'm doing six to eight loaves (each weighing an average of 1.5 pounds or a bit more) at the same time. There are actually little jets of steam shooting out from the seal around the door for almost the entire period of the bake. Only for the last five minutes or so is there no steam still shooting out. I am not using ice or any other introduced water any more.

The pics below shows color achieved with seven 1.5lb loaves for the first batch, and six 1.75lb loaves for the second batch, in the oven at a time. The oven temp when I put the loaves in was 580. The masonry was very well saturated. I pulled them after 29 minutes. Measured hearth temp (with IR gun) when I pulled them out was down to 490. Internal loaf temp was 206-209.

I put the door back on the oven and let it come back up to temp for about 15 minutes. The second batch went in with the hearth temp back up to 545-550. (That temp increase on the surface is due to heat migrating back out from the masonry to the brick surface.) That second batch stayed in for 34 minutes. When the loaves came out, the hearth was down to 475. (Again lots of steam.)





As noted previously, post a pic of your loaves and a shot of the crumb. That's really what is needed to get some advice. That being said, I think you are too cool...which will impact color. But the bigger issue with oven spring (I think anyway) is proof time.

[vtsteve]

Re: Firing just for bread

If you're getting a fine, dense crumb ("like sandwich bread") and you want to open it up, try kneading less and increasing the dough hydration slightly. Less kneading and more gentle handling will give you a more irregular structure - a mix of large and small holes - and the extra water will help inflate the loaves when it turns to steam.

I also like to have the oven at 560-580 for the first load. The steam is only necessary until the crust sets; I crack the door open at 12 minutes to let the steam escape and allow the loaves to dry as they finish cooking.

I've been doing 1-2 bake days a week this summer. One of the most useful things I've learned is what a "100 degree" pile of wood looks like for my oven.

[david s]

Re: Firing just for bread

I place a small pie tin, half filled with hot water, about 10 mins before placing the loaves. Don't really know if it does what it should, but it seems to work, the bread is good.

[Abouna]

Re: Firing just for bread

OK, here's the result of yesterdays bake. Loaves turned out fantastic (ciabatta dough) except for the crust, which was only mildly crusty. We didn't use any steam however so perhaps that's the reason. Also, IMO, the temp was still too low, about 500 at the dome.

Next time more heat and a bowl of fresh hot steam!



the crumb was great

[Abouna]

Re: Firing just for bread

Are those temps you are all stating at the floor? I'm having a hard time judging temp with the gun.

[vtsteve]

Re: Firing just for bread

If you clean out the coals and ashes, and close up the oven (with an insulated door, if you've got one), the floor and dome temps will equalize within a half hour or so -- then you can shoot the temperature. If there are any flames/coals inside, there will be enough extra radiant energy reflecting around that it's hard to get a true reading. That's my experience with the cheap Harbor Freight gun, anyway.