Scheduling your time for bread baking.

[dimitrisbizakis]

Hi guys, what do you think about my bread baking programm?

I took all the time i need for making the dough and incoporate it to the time i need to fire my oven and bring it to baking position.

I only did this i theory so i hope some of you guys help me so i check it out if i forgot something!

Here we go...

Day 1
22:00 Remove the Sourdough starter from the fridge and feeding it one time.

Day 2
15:00 Fedding the Sourdough starter once more to make it more active.
20:30 Mixing Flour with water and let to Autolyse.
21:00 Put the Sourdough starter on the dough,after they've mixed well remove some to keep for the next time, after than I put the salt.

Day 3
08:00 Starting the Fire
09:00 Making Loafs
10:00 Spreading the coals, close the door to saturete the oven.
11:00 Remove coals, mop the floor, score the loafs and bake!
11:50 Remove the bread.
12:10 The bread is now gone...

I know there is alot of time needed put Scheduling make's it happend!
p.s. sorry for my English...

[SCChris]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

I'd likely add 2-3 feeds of the starter more than what you show and I'd prefer 3 feeds at half day intervals, in hot weather you might have to go 3 feeds a day depending on your starter and the temp of the environment. The key is making sure that the starter is well fed and growing fast.. Temperature is everything here, 75-80F is ideal for the sourdough starter, levain and the proofing of the loaves. On the Day 2 you show 7 hours between the levain build and its incorporation into the dough. This might be fine as long as your levain is running strong and this depends on the starter running strong..
texassourdough is a great resource here.

Day 3, the prep of the oven part, I'd recommend pre heating the oven the day before. WJW has some great insights here. If you choose to pre heat think Pizza the night before..

There are so many variables to sourdough timeline but my biggest recommendation is to try. Start small and note everything that you can about the bake from the starter build temps to the end.. And Post your photos if possible.. Jay, texassourdough, and faith in Virginia and Bill WJW are all great resources and are very happy to help!!


Chris

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

SCChris is spot on. There are so many variables your schedule it may work once and be off the rest of the time. Experience will help you with the schedule. You have all the steps but the times are always shifting. In the summer my starter is ready to go in 4 hours. In the winter 12 to 16 hours till ready. So unless you have some tools such as a proofer and a retarder you will need to adjust your times to the season.

Now the bit with your oven. A trick I use is get the oven ready for bread early. The oven will hold it's heat for a long while with the door in place. So always have your oven ready and waiting for the dough and not waiting for the oven with the dough ready to go.

Faith

Your English is just fine.

[dimitrisbizakis]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

I'd likely add 2-3 feeds of the starter more than what you show and I'd prefer 3 feeds at half day intervals, in hot weather you might have to go 3 feeds a day depending on your starter and the temp of the environment. The key is making sure that the starter is well fed and growing fast.. Temperature is everything here, 75-80F is ideal for the sourdough starter, levain and the proofing of the loaves. On the Day 2 you show 7 hours between the levain build and its incorporation into the dough.
Day 3, the prep of the oven part, I'd recommend pre heating the oven the day before. WJW has some great insights here. If you choose to pre heat think Pizza the night before..
There are so many variables to sourdough timeline but my biggest recommendation is to try. Start small and note everything that you can about the bake from the starter build temps to the end.. And Post your photos if possible.. Jay, texassourdough, and faith in Virginia and Bill WJW are all great resources and are very happy to help!!
Chris

Yeah i know that temps are very important parameter on sourdough bread.
I have in my plans to make a DIY proffer with a alogen lamp and a thermostat.
I think i will be able to keep high temps at winter, for the summer almost every day here is 37 c, tops 40.
When you are sayin preheat how long do you say?
Thank you for the help

[dimitrisbizakis]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

So always have your oven ready and waiting for the dough and not waiting for the oven with the dough ready to go.
Your English is just fine.

Thanks for the tip Faith, i wil use this wisely!
As a self taught i don't know if my grammar is ok or not, thank God you can undestand me!

[SCChris]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

I have in my plans to make a DIY proffer with a alogen lamp and a thermostat.
I think i will be able to keep high temps at winter, for the summer almost every day here is 37 c, tops 40.
When you are sayin preheat how long do you say?
Thank you for the help

The proofer will really help you out in colder weather, nice planning! Your heat is going to really speed you through the proofing. I run my proofer at between 78 and 80F or 25 to 27F so your current proofing temps are way out of my experiences.. I'd be thinking in terms of keeping the amount of levain smaller and be looking for a cool corner to proof in. The oven pre-heating is more about getting the mass of the oven charged with heat so that the temperatures are maintained over a longer time, the temperature drops more slowly and this will help you with timing. This oven charging helps with what Faith was saying about the oven needing to be ready for the bread, the proofing bread loaves is what defines the bake time, the moment of the bake.. With my oven I run a long burn the night before and I don't need to re-burn in the morning because of the personality of my oven, how slowly the temperature drops. Not knowing your oven I'd probably burn for 2 hours the night before and check it 5 to 8 hours before the expected bake time. This should give you some indication of how fast your oven cools and how much more heat it'll need to bake your bread if you need any at all..

Chris

[dimitrisbizakis]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

Well this time was pretty much a disaster...
To hot floor burned the bottom
The bread didn't rise at baking and looking like a disk, though the interion and crust was just fine at taste.
First rise(frement) for nearly 13 hours result a triple volume dough.
Transfare it to the counter genglty, cut 6 500 gr loafs and put them to plastic bowls.
After 3 hours(Proof) i put them to bake, i also did the poke test and the dough rised slowly back.
I think the problem was that, though i did a windows pan, the glouten was fully developen, i think i needed more strech and fold, but the high hydration was a pain in the ass... i think i was about 70%.
Another problem was the temp...offcourse!
I let my oven with the coals in to saturate for an hour, put the first 3 loafs in WITH THE COALS...burned and flat!
So i decide to remove the coals, mop more the floor and put the other 3 loafs...
The result was flat disc without burned bottoms...Oh i sprey in mist water for 3 times..
My thoughts are that i over bulk-frement the dough so when i cuted the loafs yeast was out of food to rise again.

See the pics for more data!!!

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

Boy o boy you have a lot going on.

First oven temp, I fire my oven rake out the coals...THEN I start my dough. This gives the oven hours and hours to regulate. When the dough is almost ready mop the floor and give the oven at least a half hour before loading. This is what I meant by have the oven waiting and ready for the dough. If your baking multiple loads give the oven a hour to recover before loading more bread (there are exceptions to this such as bread that requires lower baking temps)

Next the dough. I don't know how much pre-ferment you used in your dough. Or if you meant your bulk ferment was 13 hours ( way too long) That is the cause of your slack dough.

With sourdough you don't windopane the dough. Mix the dough until well incorporated then a little more mixing for development (don't know if your using a mixer or by hand)

Then bulk ferment for 2 to 2.5 hours giving it a stretch and fold 2- 3- or 4 times during bulk ferment.

After bulk ferment put it on your counter and divide into loaves. At this point don't be gentle with the dough flatten it out and get all the air bubbles out (almost pound it) then form your loaves. If you don't flatten it out you will get big mouse holes in the bread.

I don't like the poke test per say. Once you form the loaf give it a poke feel how dense it feels to your finger. During proofing when you poke don't so much look at the dent as your feeling for the denseness to go away. (feel for soft and pillow like).

Then don't slash your loaf so far down the sides that will also lead to flat bread.

Start there and let me know how that goes and we can do this again. :-)

Happy baking.
Faith.

[dimitrisbizakis]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

I didn't preferment because I used only 10% sourdough starter and let is slow rise for 13 hours, isn't prefermenting a instant dry yeast way of making dough?
It's confusing with all the different ways off making your loafs...
Anyway, after 13 hours of first rising(bulk frementing), the dough is almost tripled in size,then i cut to pieces, form the loafs and rest it for 3 hours.
I now realize that at that point all the air and yeast food is gone, that is why the dough didn't puff up at baking!plus high temp that instantly killed the wild yeast!
Describing how you work with your oven is very helpfull, thank you.
Next time i will score lightly the surface, like many artisans say, scoring the bread is like a signature, I guess I have to lower the font size!

[SCChris]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

The bread in your photos look like you had some success. The bread did rise and I see some crumb, open holes.

Like Faith, my first concern is the bulk rise. I'm dealing with very different temperatures so my times should be longer than yours.

I'm mixing my dough with the idea of having an initial dough temperature of 26C and my bulk rise is about 4 hours. During this time I do at least 3 stretch and folds, at 45 min intervals, in addition to the rough mixing of ingredients and adding the salt with some water after a 45 minute autolyse. I'm including a video of Craig Ponsford making cibatta bread. I don't have a mixer and do all of my mixing by hand, but the part of the video that I want to point out are his stretch and folds. Note that he does not do many of these and the gluten development is really impressive. He's using commercial yeast and a mixer I don't use these and don't find I need them for the quantity of dough that I mix. I am using his stretch and fold method. I have stone countertops not wood so this method is nice and clean and it gives me more feedback on the gluten development than trying to do these in a bowl.

Once the 4 hour bulk rise is done, I flatten the dough, cut and measure my loaves and pre-shape the loaves. 15 to 30 minutes later I final shape the loaves and proof these in baskets at between 25 and 26C for 3 to 4 hours.

I never keep coals in the oven during the bake and I also try to allow the oven to even out the temperature differences of the oven by putting the door on and letting it sit for an hour. Faith's oven technique is well written and it's about what I do.

Chris



http://communitygrains.com/craig-ponsford-makes-cibatta

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

Liked that video...very good. Thanks Chris

[dimitrisbizakis]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

I found this very helpful and intresting article with some experiments and i though I should defenetly share it with you.

Demo: Proving Bread - Pastry & Baking - eGullet Forums

[dimitrisbizakis]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

Boy o boy you have a lot going on.
First oven temp, I fire my oven rake out the coals...THEN I start my dough. This gives the oven hours and hours to regulate. When the dough is almost ready mop the floor and give the oven at least a half hour before loading. This is what I meant by have the oven waiting and ready for the dough. If your baking multiple loads give the oven a hour to recover before loading more bread (there are exceptions to this such as bread that requires lower baking temps)

How long, and how frequently do you burn your oven?

Next the dough. I don't know how much pre-ferment you used in your dough. Or if you meant your bulk ferment was 13 hours ( way too long) That is the cause of your slack dough.

I used 10% sourdough starter with 100% hydration that i feed it the previous day and it was active, i think it's like doing the pre-ferment but not take the flour and the water from the recipe.

With sourdough you don't windowpane the dough. Mix the dough until well incorporated then a little more mixing for development (don't know if your using a mixer or by hand)

I mix by hand, basically i just stretch and fold after autolyse.

Then bulk ferment for 2 to 2.5 hours giving it a stretch and fold 2- 3- or 4 times during bulk ferment.

oops...looks like i skipped the S&F and let is for about 13 hours because of the low % of sourdough i put in(10%)!
Guilty your owner!

I don't like the poke test per say. Once you form the loaf give it a poke feel how dense it feels to your finger. During proofing when you poke don't so much look at the dent as your feeling for the denseness to go away. (feel for soft and pillow like).
Then don't slash your loaf so far down the sides that will also lead to flat bread.
Start there and let me know how that goes and we can do this again. :-)
Happy baking.
Faith.

Faith you where enlightening!
I'll try again tomorow and i'll post some proggress.

This time i will try with prefrement.

Pre-frement

100g Flour
100g Water
20g Sourdougstarter

Main Dougn

900 g Flour
500 gr Water
30 min, autolyse.
Pre-frement and 15 g salt.
Stretch and fold 3 times in a two hour period.

Remove on the counter, divide the loafs, shape them and put on baskets.

In a hour or more i''bake.. hopping of course that i'll manage to tame my WFO!

[Faith In Virginia]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

Burn time depends on the oven and type of wood used so my burn time most likely be much different from yours. Besides I have 7.5 inches of thermal mass all around my oven so my burn may be longer for that fact alone.

Looks good on your new outlook. Let us know how the bake goes.

Happy baking , Faith

[dimitrisbizakis]

Re: Scheduling your time for bread baking.

Burn time depends on the oven and type of wood used so my burn time most likely be much different from yours. Besides I have 7.5 inches of thermal mass all around my oven so my burn may be longer for that fact alone.

Looks good on your new outlook. Let us know how the bake goes.

Happy baking , Faith

I know that there will be different burning times but I just want to have an idea.