Ny Hard Rolls

[hodgey1]

We had a very large pizza party last night and cooked 25 15" NY-NP style pies. We had over prepared a bit which left us with a dozen dough's left over. We turned those today into 36 dinner rolls and 5 loafs of bread which we then delivered to friends and family, pictured below.

This is my first full summer with my WFO and today was my first experience baking in a wood oven. The result were very good and make my wife and I want to do some more soon. I know this is basically a WFO building forum but, If anyone knows how to produce a NY style hard roll please let me know. There is no where near me producing a good hard roll within 400 miles. The first stop I make when visiting family back home in NJ is to stop at the Manville Bakery and pick up a dozen rolls. My Grand Father and Uncle owned a deli near by when I was a kid and served sandwiches built to order on them and they were amazing!

The type of roll I'm talking about has a extremely thin, hard exterior then amazingly light and a little chewy inside. The only down side to these rolls is, they're only really their best that day, the next day they become more like what you'd buy in NW PA.......

[TropicalCoasting]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

When I was in the States I found the average bread to be very sweet and soft.
I think what we call "normal" bread in Australia was called Italian bread there??
Even McDonalds has to call their roll a bun in Australia because of the sugar content.(they now reduced the sugar by 40% to cater for local tastes).

But Im assuming what your after is a non sweet crusty bread roll which we would just call a bread roll here.

It seems fat(butter) and milk make the difference in the dough and no sugar.
The crust will come from steam.
Heres a stock BBC recipe for rolls,I hope thats close to what you are looking for.
BBC - Food - Recipes : Basic white rolls

[hodgey1]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

Heres a stock BBC recipe for rolls,I hope thats close to what you are looking for.
BBC - Food - Recipes : Basic white rolls

Thanks TC, I'll have to give the recipe a try.

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

Chris,

Here's another PA family looking for the same rolls:

Hard Rolls | The Fresh Loaf

John

[hodgey1]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

Chris,

Here's another PA family looking for the same rolls:

Hard Rolls | The Fresh Loaf/

John

Hi John
Thats my post and I think I have a recipe that sound like the roll I'm searching for. Its shared by woman from germany, here is the link Brot & Bread: WEIZENBR?TCHEN - EVERYDAY GERMAN ROLLS

The recipe calls for using Tipo 00 flour so I have that on hand. I'm going to give it a try this weekend and will post my results.

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

Chris,

Thanks for sharing. I have some Caputo 00 flour on hand and will try it as well. I hope its the correct flour, though. Caputo makes a Chef's Tipo 00 flour for pizza and a Rinforzato 00 flour, designed for breads. Their pizza flour protein is 12.7, and I've read the Rinforzato is made from soft European wheat, reinforced with hard American wheat for an even higher protein level.

[TropicalCoasting]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

Heres something similar a Kaiser Roll
Depending on whether the original you where after was German or Austrian in origin.
The difference here is oil/butter and egg white and malt(or honey).
Kaiser Rolls | The Fresh Loaf

[hodgey1]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

Chris,

Thanks for sharing. I have some Caputo 00 flour on hand and will try it as well. I hope its the correct flour, though. Caputo makes a Chef's Tipo 00 flour for pizza and a Rinforzato 00 flour, designed for breads. Their pizza flour protein is 12.7, and I've read the Rinforzato is made from soft European wheat, reinforced with hard American wheat for an even higher protein level.

John

I think you maybe right, The flour I have is Caputo Tipo 00 Chef four and when I went to their web site it say it has 13.5% protein. It appears the German roll recipe calls for a lower protein tipo 00 Italian with 8-9% protein. I'm going to touch base with the person who gave the recipe and double check and let you know the outcome.

[hodgey1]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

I made the rolls this weekend using the Caputo 00, the results were very good but still nothing like the hard rolls from NJ/NY area. I will continue my quest by using a different flour "pastry" for the next go at it.

[Polo]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

I made the rolls this weekend using the Caputo 00, the results were very good but still nothing like the hard rolls from NJ/NY area. I will continue my quest by using a different flour "pastry" for the next go at it.

I was reading your thread and remembered the rolls I had in Europe as a child. I am wanting to try the recipe you posted, so I checked into the flour. I think I'll try the King Arthur version. Seems to be lower protien.

King Arthur Italian-Style Flour - 3 lb.

[hodgey1]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

I was reading your thread and remembered the rolls I had in Europe as a child. I am wanting to try the recipe you posted, so I checked into the flour. I think I'll try the King Arthur version. Seems to be lower protien.

King Arthur Italian-Style Flour - 3 lb.

Hi Polo,
That flour looks to be the right protein as described by the person who gave me the recipe. I also just received a very interesting reply from my "fresh loaf" post for a recipe. See below. He claimed the key is to let the rolls nearly triple in size before baking and alot of steam the first 5min of baking.

NY Hard Rolls

Hard Rolls
(about 36 oz.)
Bakers %
21 oz. High Gluten Flour 100.00
12 oz. Water 58.00
1 Tbs. Yeast 2.25
1 tsp. Salt 1.00
1/2 oz. Diastatic Malt 1.50
1/2 oz. Sugar 1.50
1 oz. Shortening 3.00
1 oz. Egg White 3.00
Poppy Seeds, for garnish -----

174.25
In the bowl of a stand mixer with the paddle, combine the Yeast and Water. Stir at low
speed until the mixture becomes foamy, about 2 minutes. Add the remaining ingredients and mix at low speed until the dough begins to pull away from the sides of the bowl. Install the dough hook and knead at medium speed to form a fairly stiff, smooth dough, about 8-10 minutes. Cover and allow to ferment for 2 hours, folding at 1 hour, 90 minutes, and at 2 hours. Cover and refrigerate for 2 hours. Punch down and refrigerate overnight. Allow dough to come to room temperature, about 30 minutes. Scale 3-1/4 ounce and
ball. Bench rest, covered, for 30 minutes. Stamp with Kaiser stamp or ?clop?. Proof
upside down on lightly-oiled parchment until at least tripled in size. Preheat oven to
450?F. Gently turn rolls right side up; wash with water, and sprinkle with Poppy seeds.
Bake with heavy steam for 5 minutes. Reduce temperature to 400?F and bake until
golden brown, about 15 minutes.

[TropicalCoasting]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

sounds similar to the kaiser recipe
egg white and malt

[Polo]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

Chris,
THanks for the reply and the additional recipe. I'll be ordering the flour this week. I will report back with results.

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

NY Hard Rolls

Hard Rolls
(about 36 oz.)
Bakers %
21 oz. High Gluten Flour 100.00
12 oz. Water 58.00
1 Tbs. Yeast 2.25
1 tsp. Salt 1.00

Hmmm. High gluten flour? This is interesting. The KA Italian flour is 8.5% protein, while their 00 is 11.3% and their AP is 11.7%. I wonder how much the 00 grind has to do with it.

I think I'll try a batch using KAAP and cake flour first. I buy the 50lb bags of KAAP from a local restaurant warehouse for $23, and just maybe the extended rise will do the trick.

BTW, Chris. I can't get that image of your wonderful roll out of my head.

John

[hodgey1]

Re: Ny Hard Rolls

Thanks John, you should have tasted it fresh out of the oven with real butter on it.

I think the beauty of having your own brick oven in the back yard is it really opens up a whole new world of cooking and baking. I'm certain at some point I get the rolls figured out with everyone's help and an awesome baking device. Like most people here, when I started my build I was mostly concentrated on making great pizza, now that I feel I've accomplished that I'm enjoying the whole other side to the WFO. I don't think there's any other baking device that can bake bread like a brick oven. My bread and rolls come out so perfectly browned they look like they belong in a magazine.

I finally have my door somewhat usable and what a difference that has made to holding heat in where it belongs. I'm shocked at how well it holds heat and allows you to basically cook all weekend in it. This Saturday I had the oven lightly preheated "650*F ceiling 550*F floor" to steam seafood with small active fire, as soon as I finished cooking I put the door on. The next afternoon I baked the rolls without a re-fire at 400*F. When rolls where done I rekindled the fire for about 45 mins then cooked a turkey, potatoes and squash. The only reason I added more heat was to replicate the Native American/Horno video procedure. What I really needed to do was not add any additional heat and roast that bird at 400*F and it would have been perfect.

I will report back after I try this new recipe, I do think that the extended proofing will make a big difference.