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  • Bread Maker Wanna-Be

    I began cooking/baking in my WFO 3 weeks ago. I've done pizza on 3 consecutive Fridays, and a re-fire Sunday pizza bake in there too. I have cooked about 50 pizzas... they are getting better. On the three Saturdays following pizzas I have tried making bread. The first Saturday I made 9 loaves from a recipe that had a poolish, etc. I did not steam the oven, I did not let them proof properly... so I ate dense bread. The next week I made 14 loaves of bread, some english muffins, and scones. Much better results with week 2, but still not getting the oven spring I had heard so much about. Nevertheless the bread was not dense and it was tasty.

    Today I went for 23 loaves of bread (40lbs.?). The recipe I used for 19 of the loaves called for a 100% poolish 12-14 hours before and then mixing/kneading the dough and about 4 hour total rise/proof time before going in the oven. (bear with me I am still trying to figure out the vocabulary of bread making). 10 of the loaves were 50% bread flour and 50% AP flour. 3 loaves were rosemary/garlic, 3 were kalamata olive/thyme, 2 had sesame seeds on top, and 2 were plain. 9 other loaves were made from 50% bread flour, 25% whole wheat flour, and %25 rye flour. I formed these into boules. The other 4 loaves were a recipe without a poolish, with 50% bread flour and 50% whole wheat, more yeast and the addition of honey. I added some walnuts and peanut powder to these loaves and they came out ok, a little dense, but good enough.

    I baked all the bread between 570 F and 500 F. So based on the pictures and my attempt to describe what I'm trying to do: what do you notice? what can I do to improve? All advice/critique is welcomed.

    I know I need to learn how to incorporate the added ingredients (olives, garlic, etc.). I didn't add them until I was shaping the loaves and these ingredients are not integrated evenly.

    Thanks,

    John

  • #2
    Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

    WOooo fun stuff!!! I am anxious to start making bread in my oven but haven't built a good insulated door yet. I have been baking bread in my regular oven on the pizza stone and running 500-525 temps with steaming at 30 second intervals for the first few minutes by using one of those pump up spray bottles.

    What % hydration are you using in the dough? I am also a little unsure at which stage you are adding your other ingredients. If you are using containers or boules to do the final proofing there shouldn't be any shaping required. Once they are proofed they are turned out onto your peel as gently as possible, scored and put in the oven. You want to handle them as little as possible so as to not deflate the dough. Working with the whole wheat and the rye will also make it more difficult because of the lower gluten. You could add some extra gluten to help these loaves rise more.
    Tony

    Link to my oven build thread:
    40 inch indoor pompeii in NNY

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

      Tony, thanks for the reply.

      The dough was 69% hydration (and I probably over floured the surface I was kneading on as well). Should I try higher hydration?

      I mixed in the added ingredients (garlic, thyme, etc.) between the bulk proof and the shaping/final proof. I just "folded" them and didn't really work them into the whole loaf. Maybe I should mix these ingredients in before the bulk proof/rise.

      I steamed the oven for 10 seconds (using a garden pump sprayer) and then closed the oven for 10 minutes. Opened the oven loaded the loaves and steamed to the count of 10 again. Maybe I should add more steam during the baking?

      I'm working on a sourdough starter now... it will be 12 days old by next Saturday. Hopefully mature enough to bake some sourdough.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

        Hi John,

        Hmm 69% seems pretty decent, unless you are over flouring while kneading. It's hard not to want to use more flour when everything is sticky! It gets less sticky as you knead but the rye and whole wheat will be more sticky naturally and tend to stay stickier. I do have a recipe that goes all the way to 79.5% hydration for these really thin baguettes, so you might try a bit more hydration?

        So if I understand correctly you did a bulk proof 12-14hrs. Then kneaded while adding your various other ingredients, followed by shaping and proofing for roughly 4 hours, then baking? How was the final proof? Perhaps they didn't rise enough before baking? That would cause them to be dense. Being too rough with them while removing from the proofing container and deflating them could also be an issue. You might also try scoring them a bit deeper.

        I do a LOT of steaming when I use my gas oven. There is a heavy tray on the bottom of the oven that I pour a cup of water into just after putting the loaves in. I also steam with the pump up sprayer opened up to nearly a stream for about 10 seconds at 30 second intervals 3 or 4 times within the first few minutes of cooking. The gas oven though has tremendous gas exchange so moisture is sucked out of it very quickly. I have not tried cooking bread yet in the WFO other than naan while the fire was active. The WFO holds the moisture so you shouldn't need to steam much, especially if you are loading it up with loaves. One thing you can try which I have done with my other oven, is to have a very heavy preheated pan to which you toss a cup of ice cubes into at the start of the bake. They will produce a nice steady stream of steam for a few minutes.

        Look forward to your sourdough attempt! I have not tried it myself as my wife prefers yeast breads..
        Tony

        Link to my oven build thread:
        40 inch indoor pompeii in NNY

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

          Poolish (aka biga?) for 14-16 hours then bulk proof for 3 and final proof for 2. Mixed ingredients into loaves between bulk and final... Tomorrow I'm going for 25+ loaves so we'll see. Half sourdough (I might add some ADY to some because I'm not sure if my starter is up to par, although it has been fed for 11 days and twice a day for the last 7 I'm still nervous). The other half will get olives, rosemary, thyme, garlic, etc.?

          I'm going to 75% hydration on most batches tomorrow, but I'm not sure I'll get the open crumb I'm looking for because I'll be using more whole grains then last week... go figure!

          I have10 lbs. of an organic stone ground all-purpose flour (seems pretty coarse). I have 20 lbs. of ultragrain blend, and 10 lbs of King Arthur organic whole wheat. I'm just playing around trying to figure out a balance between good looking, tasting, and healthy bread.

          As an aside: I did to pizza bakes to day (lunch and dinner). I'm using Caputo 00. the lunch dough was 65% hydration mixed, kneaded, divided and put in the fridge over night and then brought out three hours before use today. The dinner dough was 70% hydration, mixed, kneaded, bulk proof for 3 hours, divided, and final proof for 3 hours. I liked, and so did my wife, the 70% a lot better... it did not charr near as much. Until today all my pizza dough had been 65%. The oven was at the same temp for both bakes.

          I will report back with pictures after tomorrow's bake.

          Thanks again,

          John

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

            Well, that was a lot of work. I ended up making about 55lbs. of dough and baked 38 loaves of bread. Too much work for one person (a beginner who has very little understanding of what he is doing) by hand. Half the bread was made with a preferment and the other half was made with a levain. I was pleased with how well the oven held up for 5 loads of bread. My cook temps ranged from 540 to 490. On a few of the loaves the oven spring was much better, but many were still dense. I think this has to do with a few things: the use of a higher percentage of whole wheat/coarse stone ground AP flour, poor slashing technique, and possibly (though I'm not sure about this) some over-proofed loaves. Nevertheless, the bread tastes good and I have given it away to many friends who seemed happy to receive.

            Take a look at the pics and offer any comments or suggestions... the boule is sourdough and the batard is rosemary and olive.

            Next Saturday I am going to scale back and work with small batches and try to pay close attention to what I'm doing. I also bought some vital wheat gluten which should help with oven spring?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

              Hi John,

              You must have many friends to be baking all that bread to give away! The texture looks nice on the sourdough from what I can tell via a couple photos. Was the sourdough primarily whole grain also? If so I think you are getting a pretty nice loaf there. You can't expect a whole grain to be just like a loaf made with white flour.

              Over proofing could be an issue.. does it seem like they just deflate a lot when you remove them from the container they are doing their final rise in? How are you gaging them to determine if they are ready for the oven? Is the dough mostly bouncing back when you gently poke them?

              I think adding some gluten would be worth trying since you are working with many whole grains and adding other heavy ingredients like the olives. It should help with the oven spring by allowing the dough to be more elastic and hold the CO2 better while rising and to give it more 'pop' when you put it in the oven. An alternative would be to use a very high protein unbleached bread flour for a portion of the blend, and the whole grain for the remainder.

              Have you watched the two videos posted in the wood fired cooking and videos section? SCChris posted one about Aaron Brunet in NZ and another about Tartine bakery. There are actually two videos in the Tartine bakery thread. I find watching how the dough responds as they are handling, shaping and baking really fascinating!
              Last edited by Tonyp; 12-01-2014, 09:05 PM.
              Tony

              Link to my oven build thread:
              40 inch indoor pompeii in NNY

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

                Again, thanks for the response it is helpful.

                I will have to watch those videos.

                When I press the loaf to "test" if it is proofed my finger indent comes back about half-way. I noticed that when I transferred the loaves from basket to peel the boule seemed to flatten a little, and from couche (dish towel) to peel the batard did the same. Another problem might be my final shaping technique and not getting a taut surface? I guess a lot is trial and error... as it should be.

                The sourdough was 100% ultragrain which claims to have 30% whole wheat but finely ground.

                Well, I'm still having fun. My wife bought me 15 more thrift store baskets for proofing today and the digital scale and thermometer are on their way. Saturday is coming!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be: week 4

                  Week 4 of bread baking was more successful than the weeks before. I am learning to bake bread; having never done it before the learning curve is rather steep. (Like today I put fresh yeast into the autolyse dough without proofing the yeast in water!)

                  I baked 44 loaves (about 45 pounds of dough). The crumb on the sourdough was much better, and the oven spring on all the loaves was improved. I added some vital wheat gluten to each of the batches to help.

                  I made french bread, sourdough, rye, and golden sesame. The golden sesame was the best!

                  1 question: The sourdough crust (light colored boules) did not caramelize, why? I steamed the oven and loaded 12 loaves and then steamed again for 15 seconds before closing the door. Is this color a sign of over-proofing (or under)? From the time I began the levain to the time I put the loaves in the oven was 18 hours. 10 hours between initial mix/knead and oven. The dough was always between 75 and 70 degrees F. The oven was 500 F when I loaded the sourdough. Any thoughts?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

                    Nice bakes and progress you're making! ...and the fact you and your neighbors are enjoying the bread speaks volumes...

                    I prefer to have my bread baking temps in the 550-575F range and get good color development (IMO) in the crust. I think you will have better browning if you bump temps up a bit for your sourdough...my gut reaction is that the 500F start temp for the "light" loaves was just too low to achieve good color in the time allowed. Definitely use a temp probe to determine the timing necessary to achieve 205-210F internal loaf temps. My best baguettes are done in the 550-575F range (15 min total bake time). My normal procedure is to make sure my oven's equalized in my preferred temp range and then bake the baguettes & Pugliese first, followed by my sourdough boules and wheat based breads in the 525-535F range. In my experience, over proofed dough will also result in paler brown colors (less sugar).
                    Mike Stansbury - The Traveling Loafer
                    Roseburg, Oregon

                    FB Forum: The Dragonfly Den build thread
                    Available only if you're logged in = FB Photo Albums-Select media tab on profile
                    Blog: http://thetravelingloafer.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

                      Thanks for the encouragement and advice.

                      Here is what I did this week:

                      Make pre-ferment (poolish) at 2pm on Friday for French Bread, Semolina/Sesame, and a rye sour for Rye bread. (3 separate tubs)
                      (begin fire in oven around this same time for pizza Friday night)
                      Make the levain for sourdough at 10pm. (another tub)
                      These are kept in our laundry room with a space heater at about 76F.
                      Wake up at 5:30.
                      Add flour and water to french bread poolish for autolyse followed by the same for the semolina bread autolyse, and then the same to the levain for the sourdough bread.
                      After 20/30 minutes I began kneading the french bread dough, then the other two doughs followed.
                      Finished mixing/kneading by 7:15 and placed the tubs of dough back in the laundry room with space heater. (I left the dough alone for the next 90 minutes while I went to a prayer breakfast)
                      At 9am I stretched and folded the three doughs and then I did that 3 more times for French and semolina, and 5 more times for the sourdough. (at 20 to 30 minute intervals)
                      10:00 I add the rest of the recipe to the rye sour, mixed and put back in laundry room to proof
                      10:30 pre-shaped/rested/shaped the French bread into batards and boules.
                      11:00 same with the semolina loaves (all batards)
                      11:15 same with rye loaves
                      12:00 loaded the oven (580F hearth) with French batards
                      12:30 loaded the oven with French boules
                      1:00 loaded the oven with semolina loaves
                      1:30 loaded the oven with rye loaves
                      1:30 preshaped/rested/shaped sourdough into boules (12 loaves)
                      I thought the loaves were under proofed after an hour so I kept waiting
                      4:00 I finally couldn't wait any longer so I loaded the oven (500 F hearth) with sourdough.

                      The bottom of half of my french bread batards were burnt (still edible, but not good enough to give away to friends). I am using a probe thermometer and all the loaves were between 200 and 210 from all the batches. Every loaf weighed between 445g (semolina) and 615g (sourdough).

                      Mike,
                      Based on your advice/experience I think next week I will try to bake the sourdough before the French bread, rather than after. I just don't feel like it is proofing as well as the yeast breads. Maybe my starter is not as good as it is going to get. I began the starter a couple of weeks ago and fed it for 12 days on the counter. I used it in a bake on 11/29 and the put it in the refrigerator until Wed. of last week. I sat it on the counter and fed it 4 times before using it for the levain on Friday night.

                      I know there is no short cut and I am enjoying the trial and error. Without the advice of this forum and some books to read I'd be totally lost.

                      Thanks,

                      John

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

                        I like seeing a timeline for breads--good job! I'm surprised your French breads were getting too dark on the bottom. It seems like at that hydration level it wouldn't be a problem. I'd rather you try lowering your initial hearth temps or reduce bake times just a bit rather than baking them after the sourdough...

                        My opinion, for what it's worth... Rye breads are classically done at low temps, so I'd move them to the end of the bake cycle. My sourdough levain (no commercial yeast) loaves take 6-8 hours to rise properly before I bake them. (I do my proofing in a bit lower temps than most folks...70-73F.) If I was working your system, I'd size, shape, & form my levain loaves first so they would have a longer proof time. I also don't like my sesame seeds breads done at higher temps because the seeds can produce a burnt flavor I don't like. I'd be looking at baking them just before the rye.

                        If it was me, I'd bake breads in this order starting at 575F (ish):
                        Baguettes & Pugliese
                        French/Italian
                        Sourdough with rye/wheat component
                        Sesame/lighter flavor profile breads
                        Ryes & Challah types (sweet breads)

                        Just for fun I attached two pdf versions of my Levain formula spreadsheet (one for two loaves and the other for 10 loaves).
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by SableSprings; 12-08-2014, 01:15 PM.
                        Mike Stansbury - The Traveling Loafer
                        Roseburg, Oregon

                        FB Forum: The Dragonfly Den build thread
                        Available only if you're logged in = FB Photo Albums-Select media tab on profile
                        Blog: http://thetravelingloafer.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

                          Mike,

                          Very helpful. I have looked at your files and will be using them as well as implementing your schedule suggestion this weekend. I'm going to be giving away bread for Christmas to the teachers/therapists/administrators at my children's (5 to be exact, kids that is) school. I'd like to give each person 2 loaves... your advice will help me bake gift worthy bread.

                          Do you have a recipe for Pugliese that you would suggest?

                          Thanks again,

                          John

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

                            Hi John,

                            Nice to see the progression as you experiment and alter! Looking mighty fine! What hydration are you using now? Maybe up it a couple percent on the French batards?

                            Great to have Mike's input as well! Especially since I only have limited experience with sourdough. My thoughts were along the same line, when I took a look at the latest photos. The sourdough needs more time to rise properly and the oven could have been hotter with those. Based on your timetable I would find it hard to believe they were over proofed
                            Tony

                            Link to my oven build thread:
                            40 inch indoor pompeii in NNY

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

                              The french batards/boules were at 69% I will try for a higher hydration next bake. The semolina and sourdough were 75%. The rye, 67%. I did use a small percentage of Vital Wheat Gluten ( 3% at the most) in each batch of dough and I added small percentages of spelt or whole wheat to the french and sourdough. I'll keep more exact track of these modifications this week. I will also shoot for longer proof times, especially for the sourdough. I do not want to become depended on the vital wheat gluten since it is quite expensive and theoretically (for me) and practically (for experienced bakers) unnecessary.

                              The semolina is great bread. Toasted with coconut oil spread on top: delicious.

                              John

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