Bread Maker Wanna-Be

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Those baguettes look awesome John! I am with Chris, the long narrow baguettes go first and with the high hydration and shape they could be going upwards of 600f without too much trouble. But then again I like a nice dark crust and don't consider it burned unless it's pretty darn close to black. Did you take a photo of the bottoms on those you feel were burned? Maybe try mopping the hearth prior to putting the loaves in? That would drop your hearth temp a bit and slow the cooking on the bottom initially and add some steam to the oven.

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John, I like your crumb and crust, I tend toward baking to a deeper color but this is personal. From what I've been told, your small breads should be baked first and at higher temps and hydration plays a part in the equation.

The reasoning behind smaller loaves baking hotter is that these require less time to brown and bake through. Baguettes might only take 20 minutes where a large miche could take 70 or so minutes to bake well, more or less. With higher hydration, the loaves will tolerate a higher temp, give more oven spring and a more open crumb but they will also require more time to clear the extra water and so maintain a crusty crust, not forgetting to mention how different and difficult shaping hi hydration dough can be, initially anyways.

In contrast to the small, unenriched breads, the bigger loaves just take more time. In one class the instructor didn't want the top to burn or over brown and so after turning the loaf out but before placing the loaf into the oven, he generously floured the top before slashing. In another the baker found the loaves were browning a bit too fast on the bottom and so he relocated these to the side of the oven, tilted them on edge balanced against the wall to complete the bake. In all of the classes that I’ve had, the bakers, professional bakers, baked by feel and sound. The fully baked loaves should really sound hollow and if you gently squeeze the boules they shouldn’t really yield, the crust should be solidly set. Feel is a better judge of doneness than is temperature, in my opinion.

Enriched breads will require a cooler bake because the butter, eggs, sugar, milk or whatever will burn at these higher temps.

Chris

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

I baked this weekend (48 loaves)... today I was outside baking and it was 10F and windy... what am I thinking?

I went with a long bulk ferment again... very similar to last week's schedule, but I had to divide my baking between Sat. and Sun.

I keep burning the bottoms of some of my loaves. Today I loaded the oven with heavy boules first (650g) and the hearth temp was 540F and the vault was 570F. The bottoms of half of the loaves burned (still edible, but not enough to give to others). I know I could wait until the oven was cooler, but I read of people baking between 540F and 580F... so what am I doing wrong? The internal temp of the loaves is not over 205F when I remove them from the oven.

I am really happy with the oven spring and my scoring is getting better. I need to find a middle ground for scoring. In the weeks past I was slashing too much which allowed for "flatter" loaves and this week I didn't slash deep enough and had some tearing.

I'm really pleased with the baguette open crumb. Next weekend I hope to do a batch of seven-grain bread that incorporates a soaker into the dough, as well as some Rosemary sourdough. My "customers" are surely getting tired of the same three breads.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Yes, I have had that steam experience too... it is a wonderful smell. Do I understand you begin with heavy (600g +) boules? I reasoned (probably irrationally) that lighter baguettes with less crumb would cook the most even at higher temps?

How long does your oven take to "recharge"? My vault doesn't lose a lot of heat but the hearth loses 50 to 75 degrees with each load... it'll come back up to within 20-30 degrees of where I started the initial bake if I let, but I get impatient and put the next load in pretty quick.

I'm still learning that the heat at the outside of the brick will move towards the inside of the oven to level out the heat... it seems counterintuitive that an oven without an active heat source will reheat itself... but of course the bricks are an active heat source.

Part of my problem is that this is still so new to me that experience hasn't taught me to trust the capabilities of the oven. For weeks I've been telling myself that I shouldn't keep a fire going past 7pm on Friday night so I can begin baking bread a little earlier (11am or so), but when the time comes I convince myself that last week was a fluke and just to be on the safe side I throw 2 or 3 more logs on the fire and put the door on around 8pm or 9pm. This last week I went through this and when I went to check the oven temp at 12:30pm on Sat. the temp was 680F... so I had to leave the door off for a while just to get the temp to drop for baking. I don't want to waste wood.

[Laurentius]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Too hot! 570F hearth. I get impatient and think "this should cause some good spring, but what I get it a little burning on the bottom." I guess 570F would be OK if I was baking 300g baguettes, but with 500g batards it is probably a little too hot.

I was hoping that you were on the hot side, but I would start with my heavy boule first, with the steam they produce you should get spectacular oven spring with a loaded oven. I had steam pouring around my sealed door, smelling like a bakery.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Too hot! 570F hearth. I get impatient and think "this should cause some good spring, but what I get it a little burning on the bottom." I guess 570F would be OK if I was baking 300g baguettes, but with 500g batards it is probably a little too hot.

[Laurentius]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Hi JohnR,

Maybe you have stated this before and I missed it. What is the temperature of your oven with your first load?

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Hi John,

Coming along nicely! The loaf with the ear looks great. Clearly got a nice score and oven spring there. Making me hungry for a nice crusty loaf of bread...

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Baked bread today. I took Chris' advice (well, partially) and cold proofed my dough... bulk rather than shaped because I did not have room 40 shaped loaves in my garage refrigerator.

Here's a quick synopsis of my schedule and temps without every little detail:

12pm Thurs. Started levain for sourdough (when started had just peaked, about 4 hours after feeding)
2pm Thurs. Started poolish for 2 batches of "pain rustique"
8pm Thurs. Mixed final dough for 1st batch of sourdough 75% AP 25% Whole Wheat Durum, 75% Hydration 3 S&F stored at 50F overnight into the refrigerator at 7am Fri. morning.
10pm Thurs. Started levain for 2nd batch of sourdough (about 12 hours from feeding starter)
7am Fri. mixed final dough for 2nd sourdough 75% AP, 25% whole wheat (King Arthur's Flour), 75% Hydration
7:30am Fri. mixed final doughs for "pain rustique"
1st batch 50% whole wheat durum, 50% AP, 75% Hydration
2nd batch 50% semolina, 50% AP, 69% Hydration
All three bulk proof at 50F for 8 hours, and into the refrigerator at 3pm Fri.
3pm Fri. start poolish for 3rd batch of "pain rustique"
5:30am Sat. pre-shape, shape sourdough boules final proof at 60F for 7 hours
6:30 am Sat. pre-shape, shape "pain rustique" batards final proof at 60F for 6 hours
7am Sat. mix final dough for 3rd batch of "pain rustique" 100% AP, 69% Hydration, bulk proof at 50F for 6 hours (2 S&F)
12:30pm Sat. bake "pain rustique"
1:30pm Sat. bake sourdough
1:30pm Sat. pre-shape, shape baguettes and batards "pain rustique"
3:30pm Sat. bake last batch of "pain rustique"

That covers most of the major stuff.

I'm really happy with the taste of the "oldest" sourdough (the lighter of the two loaves in the crumb picture). I haven't tried the 50% durum whole wheat yet, but it looks good. Got my first "gringe" or ear today on one of the white loaves... still learning how to score the bread, among many other things.

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John, I had to move out of our kitchen to a prep room I created in the garage (to return the kitchen to my wife). I originally had covered a set of metal shelves with plastic and 1" insulation board, installed a small heater & fan and used it quite successfully as a proofing box. I recently purchased a nsf stainless steel wire 4' wide x 6' tall rack. It's got 5 shelves and is 18" deep...so a full baking sheet fits nicely on a shelf. I proof my baguettes in a couche on an inverted half sheet (5-6 baguettes on each sheet-4 half sheets to a shelf). My upcoming plan is to use panel board and rigid insulation board to enclose the top 3/4 of the rack unit (4 shelves). With a small heater on the bottom shelf (that has a good thermostat & fan), it will become my new proofing box. I don't plan on doing the amount of dough that you do on bake day, but the rack cost $89 at Costco and I've spent another $75 on the heater, insulation, and panel board. Since I haven't seen a used proofing box for anything near what I'm willing to spend...this will probably be what I use for quite a while and thought it might be something for you to consider if you don't find an inexpensive commercial unit. I really like the fact that the nsf rack comes with a set of heavy casters, so I'm able to easily move the homemade proofing box around. I currently use an nsf rack to cool my breads when they come out of the oven and have been really happy with the quality of the unit components.

Anyway, my real restriction now is the refrigeration space for the dough...I only get to use part of our garage refrigerator for baking...so I really love it when we have cool nights (not freezing) here in Oregon on the night before a bake. I guess there's always something

Happy Holidays & looking forward to another great year of baking.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

I have read a lot on thefreshloaf.com but have not joined the forum yet. You are overstating the facts when you even categorize me as a SHB. I really am new to this, and I am still trying to figure out how this new hobby will develop. I enjoy working with my hands, and I enjoy feeding people. Bread making seems to be a good fit (plus all the ways bread has been used metaphorically and physically throughout history, culture, religion, etc. is really appealing).

I am trying to understand the basics of bread and I find with this, as with other things, I learn best by repetitive trial and error... so I am baking a lot and taking notes and trying different things as I go. My friends are good to give honest feedback, which helps as well.

I set out to build my oven for pizza and hosting lots of people... though I did not plan on bread I am thankful for the simple fact that it is not an either/or. I can have my pizza party on Friday night and bread bake on Saturday with the same wfo!

If I get good at baking bread with commercially available flours (which I am using currently because I am still learning and I am giving everything away) I would eventually like to switch to milling my own wheat, etc. etc. I think there is a niche market for "local" and I have a friend who is a wheat farmer who is already keen on the idea of growing 1 or 2 acres of "sustainable" wheat for my bread production... he's been eating lots of the bread I've been baking. All this is quite hypothetical!

Nevertheless, I have the oven, and I enjoy the process, so who knows?

I am checking used restaurant/baking equipment auctions for a proofing box. My wife says she wants her laundry room back on Saturdays.

By the way Chris, I am from Southern California (San Diego) but have been in the Kansas City area for the past 10 years. All our family is still in San Diego and the Imperial Vally so we go back every two years for vacation.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John,
Congrats again, I don’t know if you have connected with thefreshloaf.com yet, but you’re going to find it a great resource for all things bread. The community ranges from first time bakers to full time pros and the forum is broken out such that you’ll find a group of experts for whatever question you want answered.

Now the reason that I mention the site is that with the volumes and number of bakes that you’re doing, if you continue, you will really benefit from a few real mentors and a bit of supporting equipment. As I mentioned earlier I think retarding is going to help you with your scheduling, what I didn’t mention was that a proofing box/cabinet will also really help.

Controlling as many variables as you can will really help you get the consistency that you’re looking for. I’m including a link for a homemade inexpensive proofer that uses a terrarium heater and a timer to automate some of the process. I was searching for bigger unit that was more recently shown but didn’t immediately find it. You should also know that used equipment like racks for proofing, are often available for less that you might build it for and will work better for the volume of loaves you're baking.

Your volume really puts you in the small bakery realm rather than the serious home baker world although your experience may be more SHB. Keep it up and you'll be a full time pro!

Proofing Box | The Fresh Loaf

Chris

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Another bake day:

Today I worked with approx. 60 lbs. of dough.

75% Pain au Levain
Pugliese (thanks again for Mike's recipe)
69% Pain Rustique (French bread)
Golden Sesame made with AP flour and semolina

Nicer looking loaves today and better caramelization on the crusts. I still couldn't get the pugliese to "spring" in the oven and the sourdough loaves were still a little "soupy/jiggly" coming out of the proofing basket and flattened more than I'd like on the peel... they may be over-proofed.

Next week I'll implement cold fermentation (thanks again to Chris) and stretch out the process from 30 hours to 3 days or so.

I am really glad I followed the advice to insulate well. I only have 4.5" of thermal mass in the vault and 2.5" in the floor. I was able to bake all the bread, and tonight when I went out to roast brussels sprouts at 6:45pm (23 hrs. after I put the door on at the end of pizza) the vault (dome) temp was 507F and the hearth was 465F. WOW!

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

The pre-shape / shape process is normal just refrigerate. I had a few instances of stickage in wicker baskets and this was due to a lack of flour. I always use white rice flour now and flour every time. I use some super sized ziplock bags that I found at target and these can handle 2 to 3 baskets per bag. You might need experiment with quantities of yeast a bit if you're using commercial yeast rather than sourdough because the yeast will not slow as much as sourdough in the lower temps but whatever, it'll give you more breathing time..

97 loaves, you are a brave man!


C

PS any change in yeast should be minor with the caveat that most recipes far overstate the required yeast.. IMO.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Chris, I will definitely try out the cold proof. After mixing/kneading do i allow the normal times for bulk proof, pre-shape, and then refrigerate after shaping? I assume that I would, just checking. And is there any potential of the dough sticking to the floured couche (cloth napkin) while in the refrigerator for so long?

Thanks for the feedback... your advice will help control the chaos.