Bread Maker Wanna-Be

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John, for a first go at three back to back bakes, I call that 97 times successful!

I have the feeling, reading your post, that the bakes were a bit frantic what with mixing, proofing and shaping, times three. With 97 loaves, I bet it was.. Congrats!!!

Have you considered shaping and refrigerating one or more of your breads the night before? This would allow you to base your bake session more on the oven temp lessening the combined complexities of the conventional mix, proof, shape and bake, single session.

A couple of years ago I had decided that retarding my pre-shaped loaves in the refrigerator was less desirable than retarding my dough prior to shaping, I have since rethought this. What I have found is that professional bakers, world class bakers, cannot agree on what is better for flavor development, retard before shaping or after. What they do agree on is that a longer proof does generate more flavor.

My most recent bakes have been to shape my loaves and allow 1 to 2 days of retarding and bake directly from the fridge. Remove the loaves, slash the loaves and bake the loaves without any intermediate resting to warm the unbaked loaves. The benefit for me has been that I can break up the process, mixing and proofing and shaping on Sunday morning and baking Monday or Tuesday night after work… Fresh bread midweek is very nice! Likewise, if I have 4 to 5 hours at night and can get my levain started in the morning, I can put shaped loaves in the fridge before bed.

The great majority of my baking is using cast iron “combo cookers” cloches in my kitchen oven. I can bake 2 800g loaves at a time or, using a bake stone, I can do a single 6Kg miche using a stainless steel mixing bowl to cover. The combo cookers and bowl contain the steam for the first 25 minutes and steam is critical for crust and crumb development. My WFO is 43” and so the volume of an Ideal bake is something greater than 18 Lbs. of dough per bake and 22 Lbs. is better for steam and crust generation. This volume requirement can be side stepped by using cloches to cover the loaf or generating great volumes of steam via a garden sprayer or some such.

Most professional baker have the luxury, necessity really, of temperature controlled proofing cabinets and walk-in refrigerators for retarding. We are, for the most part, serious home bakers, S.H.B.s.

S.H.B.s that retard shaped loaves cannot agree if these loaves should be brought out of the fridge and allowed some time to warm up before baking. I don’t believe that the time to warm is particularly helpful but the ability to wait for the oven to be right and pull the loaves from the fridge and bake makes the complexities of timing the proof to the proper oven temp, or vice versa, much easier.

Chris

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

You can see in the pic of the three loaves how much lower the sourdough (left) is compared to the french (middle). Total loaves for the day: 97.

Pre-bake weight: sourdough, 640; french; 550, sesame, 460.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Well, that was an experience. The bread bake went OK. I began at 5:15 this morning and pulled the last loaves out of the oven at 7:40pm. The sourdough was the most disappointing. Very little oven spring... the only difference between the last sourdough that turned out so well and today was I forgot to remove 10% of the levain (per recipe instructions) before mixing in the ingredients for the final dough. I remembered before I had completely mixed two of the batches so I tried to fish out some levain. Other than that rookie mistake (by this rookie) everything else (temps, times, ingredients) were the same. The dough was nice and shaped up well, but when I put it on the peel to load it felt, for lack of a better word: soupy/jiggly. Nevertheless, I ended up with 45 loaves at 640g (before baking) each.

After the three loads of sourdough the vault temp was 520 and the hearth was 425. I took some hot ashes that I cleared out in the morning and started another small fire. Brought the vault up to 650 and the hearth up to 550 (took about 60 minutes with a small fire).

Since I had gotten behind my timeline (somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd load of sourdough it began to snowball), I had mixed the yeast bread too early (10am and 11am). I shaped them and had them in proofing baskets by 12:30/1:30. I was still finishing the sourdough at this time. I ended up moving these loaves into the cold garage after they had proofed a while in the house, lest they become over-proofed.

By 4:00pm I loaded the french bread, and slowly but surely I was able to load three loads of the Golden sesame to finish off the day.

I learned a lot today about my speed, or lack thereof, and about how I'd like to use my oven for bread. I think more than 4 loads is too cumbersome... I did not like lighting another fire, etc., etc. My Saturday routine seems to follow the heat curve of my wfo without the need for further fire and still produces 50 loaves of bread. So, if I were ever to undertake 100 loaves in one week again I would split it up into two days. Oh, and I also learned bread is not nearly as interesting to my daughter as it is to me. At one point today she was in the bathroom painting her fingernails while I was baking.

The pictures should be self-explanatory... just showing some of my low budget set-up.

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

For baguettes, try the Gold Medal Better for Bread flour. I do a poolish and levain the night before and add the remaining flour & salt for the final dough in the morning of a bake. I really love the oven spring and flavor profile I get with this no-knead, long fermentation style loaf. P.S. - I've been folding small cubes of Asiago cheese into the baguettes during the final shaping and that bread's pretty awesome (if I do say so myself). Looking forward to hearing how you like the flour on order vs the 00/Red Mill combo.

Will look into it Mike. There are so many flours out there! Locally the stores here just carry the typical stuff you get in the supermarket, pillsbury etc. Now that I will start ordering online though .. so much to choose from!

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Quite the undertaking there John! Sounds like you have a well thought out game plan though. I agree you will most likely need to refire the oven in there somewhere with all those batches of bread.

My tiny batch of baguette dough, equivalent to about 1/80th of what you are producing, is sitting in my fridge for a couple days now..Too many interruptions here at the house for me to get a nice stretch of time to get the dough proofed and the oven heated properly.. My fridge is cold though so the dough it not doing anything while it waits so should be good for tomorrow when I have the day to myself! My reinforced 00 and type 65 flours arrived today so looking forward to experimenting with them in the near future. Also picked up some diastatic malt powder since neither flour is enriched at all.

Looking forward to seeing how your latest batches turn out!

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

(The semolina flour is less forgiving when it comes to proofing time because of its high protein, so I've read.)

Wow! I am awed by your system and the volume produced. I suspect your upper body strength has increased a bunch...definitely allows you to eat more of the breads you're producing. I also have about a 10'x10' prep room, but I really don't have the dedication and drive you have...this is amazing!

John, be very careful when using the terms Semolina and Durum flour as they are distinctly different products with different intended uses. Although both are made from Durum wheat, Semolina (rarely called Semolina flour) is a coarser grind than Durum Extra Fancy flour and consequently doesn't have the same baking/cooking properties. Durum Extra Fancy feels much like "normal" flour and is slightly yellow. Extra Fancy will easily absorb more water (than Semolina) while remaining extremely workable as a bread dough. I really can't say I've experienced any problems with proofing times when I incorporate Durum Extra Fancy into bread dough. Semolina doesn't absorb water very quickly and is used for primarily for pasta where you want a bit more texture-also why it's often used on pizza peels...so the pie slides off nicely.

Although you certainly can make tasty breads with Semolina, once you use Durum Extra Fancy you'll never go back...

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John,
I am looking forward to seeing the results of your work!

Chris

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

I'd love to see your setup for creating/working/shaping/proofing/oven loading - it looks like you're quickly becoming a master of bread production from the WFO! :

You probably don't want to... I am working in a 10x10 kitchen with 5 kids running around... and having too much fun.

I began the process this morning for a big (way too big) bake tomorrow. I added it up and the finished dough weight of tomorrows bake is over 51kg/112lbs. I'm hoping to wind up with somewhere between 90 and 100 loaves.

At 6:30am this morning I mixed the levain for three large sourdough batches... each batch in its own tub. The finished dough weight for each tub is 9.6kg. After letting the levain do its thing until 4pm when I got home I mixed/kneaded the remainder of the dough ingredients (with a 30 minute autolyse after adding flour and water to levain and prior to salt and kneading). Then these three tubs went in a cellar like space that is consistently around 50 F. At 6pm I mixed the poolish for three other batches: 1 French (Pain Rustique) and 2 Golden Sesame (everyone likes this one). Each batch gets its own tub: six tubs of dough total. The finished dough weight for the French will be 8kg, and the finished dough weight for each batch of the golden sesame will be 7kg. At 8pm, 9pm, and 10pm I took the sourdough from the "cellar" and gave each batch a stretch and fold (one last s&f at 11pm).

I started a fire in the oven around 5pm and put the door on at 9:30pm. It was 955F on the roof and 750+ on the hearth.

I'm going to rise at 5am and pre-shape 45 loaves of sourdough. Hopefully by 6:30am they will all be shaped into boules and put in baskets to rise for 6+ hours. (I've bought 45 baskets from thrift stores over the last month at $1 a piece). I can fit 15 boules in the oven at one time... so three loads of sourdough with some time for equalizing in between loads.

The poolish will reach the 15 hour mark at 9am. At that time I'll begin mixing the final dough for the French. An hour or so later I'll begin mixing the final dough for the golden sesame. (The semolina flour is less forgiving when it comes to proofing time because of its high protein, so I've read.) 2 hours of bulk proof. By then my baskets should be freed up from the sourdough. French and then sesame into the baskets to final proof. During this time if the oven has lost too much heat because of the 3 loads of sourdough I'll start a fire and bring it back up to temp. When the oven and the bread is ready I'll begin loading the french and sesame.

100 loaves by 4pm! HA! Sounds so easy, but I'm sure it won't go that smooth... It will be me and my 4 year old daughter, I mean baking assistant, home tomorrow. I will try to remember to take pictures along the way and I will report back tomorrow night with what went well and what went wrong.

The tubs with the white sticky notes are the poolish. The three tubs on concrete are the sourdough. The dough pic is sourdough before a stretch and fold. Then a pic of the fire before the door was put on and a temp shot of the "cellar".

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Yes, I agree with Tony - John, your breads really look great. Glad you started this thread.

Those potatoes sound yummy Mike! Do you keep the lid off so they get crispy on the outside? I will have to pick up some dried egg whites to try. My starter is bubbling merrily now after 6 days so I mixed up a small batch of dough for baguettes. While we were in Paris we had this great baguette from an artisan baker that had sesame seeds on it. I ordered some flour from NYbakers but for now I used a blend of half Italian 00 and half Bobs Redmill unbleached white flour.

Tony, I keep the lid on the dutch oven for the potatoes. I especially like the Yukon Golds or reds for baking & adding to my breads. Bakers (the potatoes ) taste very good as well done this way. I wash and dry the potatoes, stab each a couple times with a knife and put 'em in the dutch oven. Next I drizzle EVOO over the batch and then sprinkle the pile with Kosher, Himalayan, or my favorite, Murray River salt with a several coarse grinds of black pepper. Dig into the dutch oven and rub the oil/salt/pepper over each potato. Cover & bake. I usually do the spuds at 450-500F after my bread is done and they take between 40 minutes to an hour. Although not crispy, they do get a wonderful "ring of delicious browning" on the bottoms where they contact the iron.

For baguettes, try the Gold Medal Better for Bread flour. I do a poolish and levain the night before and add the remaining flour & salt for the final dough in the morning of a bake. I really love the oven spring and flavor profile I get with this no-knead, long fermentation style loaf. P.S. - I've been folding small cubes of Asiago cheese into the baguettes during the final shaping and that bread's pretty awesome (if I do say so myself). Looking forward to hearing how you like the flour on order vs the 00/Red Mill combo.

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Bread is looking great John! Can see how well you are progressing with each new attempt. Can't imagine making that much but then again there are only a few houses within viewing distance of where I am so no clue what I would do with that much bread!

Tropical Coasting - bummer on the mixers ;< I have a kitchenAid counter top mixer that can only handle a few cups of flour before it starts to strain. For making dough I use my electrolux assistent (it has other names like magic mill etc). Much heavier duty and can handle up to 5lbs of flour without any problem.

Those potatoes sound yummy Mike! Do you keep the lid off so they get crispy on the outside? I will have to pick up some dried egg whites to try. My starter is bubbling merrily now after 6 days so I mixed up a small batch of dough for baguettes. While we were in Paris we had this great baguette from an artisan baker that had sesame seeds on it. I ordered some flour from NYbakers but for now I used a blend of half Italian 00 and half Bobs Redmill unbleached white flour.

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

There could have been other reasons for the flat pugliese... I didn't adhere to your recipe because I didn't have some of the ingredients (no potatoes, high gluten wheat instead of durum, but both are high-protein).

For sticking seeds to dough I read in a book that you can get a dish towel damp and simply roll the loaf on the towel and then in seeds and they will stick... it worked like a charm.

Durum flour is quite different from high gluten wheat...check in your grocery store's bulk food bins. You'll be amazed at how well water is absorbed and how wonderfully silky the durum dough feels. I purchase 50# sacks of both from General Mills (#53722 Harvest King - bulk equivalent of Gold Medal's Better for Bread $25 and #57602 Durum Extra Fancy $29). I contacted the lady in charge of bulk foods at my grocery and order through her...flour is there within a week. With the size of your batches, it may save you quite a bit of money. I tried several flours and found that the Harvest King/Better for Bread worked best for me. It's lower protein than most bread flours, but it's at the protein level used primarily for baking breads in France. I also buy the All-Trumps from the bulk bins to enhance the gluten level in my whole wheat and rye breads.

I love the flavor of potatoes roasted in a cast iron dutch oven (with just EVOO, salt, & pepper). I almost always put some spuds in the oven after my bread bake and find it very convenient to have them on hand if I'm going to make Pugliese or add some to a wheat bread (makes it more moist).

I tried the damp towel and water spray/mist for sticking seed to loaves, but found that unless I had some rye flour in the dough, the seeds came off quite easily after baking. That's why I started using the powdered egg whites...

I'd love to see your setup for creating/working/shaping/proofing/oven loading - it looks like you're quickly becoming a master of bread production from the WFO!

Tropical Coasting: Sorry about your mixers "dying" ... that's one of the reasons I started hand mixing. My old KitchenAid just couldn't handle the amount of dough I wanted to produce

[TropicalCoasting]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

My attempts was an amateurs mistake its either a floured finish or its seeds I went for moooooooooar
Spray some water if your doughs not sticky enough just as you are about to put it in
It will make for a good crust too
The black seeds were nigella (I called them angelica)
That loaf killed my first mixer
I killed 1 more after that and Im a bit worried I might be up to 3 on the last pizza dough ,its getting a bit noisy.
I might have to take up hand mixing.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

There could have been other reasons for the flat pugliese... I didn't adhere to your recipe because I didn't have some of the ingredients (no potatoes, high gluten wheat instead of durum, but both are high-protein).

For sticking seeds to dough I read in a book that you can get a dish towel damp and simply roll the loaf on the towel and then in seeds and they will stick... it worked like a charm.

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Looks like you're becoming the village baker (and not a small village!) Nice batch of breads. I'm a little surprised that the pugliese didn't puff up more. Doesn't really matter as long as it tastes good and you might get a little better spring and more open crumb next time with a touch more oven heat. (Sixty two pounds of dough by hand...you're certainly not going to need to spend extra money to go to a gym ) I also do all my mixing and dough work by hand...to me it seems like the whole point of making breads for my friends (closer to the heart and from my hands to yours, etc.)

Do try the black seeds (AKA Nigella, or Charnushka, not Angelica) that Tropical Coasting used and noted in the previous post & pic. As a topping on breads with sesame or with focaccia...they're one of my favorite things to sprinkle on-especially for flatbreads and epi. Mixed with a little fennel seed it will give an authentic Turkish flair/experience to your breads.

As a suggestion/alternative to using egg whites to stick the seeds to dough, I bought a can of powdered egg whites and mix it up to brush on before hitting the dough with seeds. The powdered stuff will make a great sticker and you don't have to crack any eggs to get the whites (and later figure out what to do with leftover yolks).

Looking forward to your next bake report.

[TropicalCoasting]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Here's one of my attempts using yoghurt and whey as a major part of the liquid with angelica seeds to give it a middle eastern taste.
Was excellent.