Bread Maker Wanna-Be

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Good bake day! 62 pounds of dough (mixed by hand). 15 loaves: sourdough, 13 loaves: french bread, 12 loaves: golden sesame, 11 loaves: pugliese.

I did some different things this week and I had better results. The sourdough was the biggest difference: I mixed the levain on Friday morning at 7am. Then mixed the final dough at 4:30pm. Retarded at 50F at 5:30pm (3 stretch and folds at 8:30, 9:30, 10:30 Friday night). Pre-shape loaves at 6am Sat., shaped boules at 7am... in the oven at 12:30. Nice loaves.

I baked in this order: pugliese, sourdough, french, sesame.

The only thing that went wrong is that my oven was cooler earlier than normal. I attribute that to two things: 1) I put the door on Fri. night at 8:30, instead of 9:30 2)I didn't leave a lot of hot coals in the oven when I put the door on 3) possibly the oven wasn't as saturated, but that seems unlikely. Usually I have 650 F vault temps at noon on Saturday after Friday night pizza. Today it was 575 F. Not the end of the world... I would have liked to cook the pugliese at a higher temp...

The pre-shape pic is sourdough, the crumb shot is pugliese, the batard is the french bread, and the boules are sourdough, and the other pic is all the bread from today.

I am going to try to repeat something like this on Wed. and Thurs. of this week to give away as gifts. Wish me luck!

Again, thanks for the help and guidance.

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Mike,

Do you have a recipe for Pugliese that you would suggest?

John

I've attached two pdf files for a 2 and 10 batch of the Pugliese I do. (p.s. - I like using roasted potato in my breads, but you can substitute potato flakes ). Also put in a picture of some typical Pugliese loaves (with blowouts ). Note that there's a learning curve with working with wet loaves (that you probably are familiar with). I've attached a link below to my neighbor's blog with a video of working with wet artisan dough.

Bertha's Kitchen: November 2010

If you're looking for a substitute for your gluten supplement, try using some All-Trumps flour as a portion of total flour...it has a very high gluten content and not nearly as expensive as the Vital Wheat Gluten product.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Yes, the recipe calls it "Golden Sesame". I think it would taste good without the sesame seeds as well. I did read the link posted SCChris about controlling sourness... very helpful.

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Is that the one with the black seeds? Does look very yummy! You probably don't need the gluten unless you are doing high % whole grain flours or adding lots of additional cracked grains, nuts, etc

Going to start a sourdough starter today.. even though my wife prefers yeast breads. Going with the pineapple juice method...I want to start working with sourdough too. Did you see the link in the other section of the forum on controlling sourness?

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

The french batards/boules were at 69% I will try for a higher hydration next bake. The semolina and sourdough were 75%. The rye, 67%. I did use a small percentage of Vital Wheat Gluten ( 3% at the most) in each batch of dough and I added small percentages of spelt or whole wheat to the french and sourdough. I'll keep more exact track of these modifications this week. I will also shoot for longer proof times, especially for the sourdough. I do not want to become depended on the vital wheat gluten since it is quite expensive and theoretically (for me) and practically (for experienced bakers) unnecessary.

The semolina is great bread. Toasted with coconut oil spread on top: delicious.

John

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Hi John,

Nice to see the progression as you experiment and alter! Looking mighty fine! What hydration are you using now? Maybe up it a couple percent on the French batards?

Great to have Mike's input as well! Especially since I only have limited experience with sourdough. My thoughts were along the same line, when I took a look at the latest photos. The sourdough needs more time to rise properly and the oven could have been hotter with those. Based on your timetable I would find it hard to believe they were over proofed

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Mike,

Very helpful. I have looked at your files and will be using them as well as implementing your schedule suggestion this weekend. I'm going to be giving away bread for Christmas to the teachers/therapists/administrators at my children's (5 to be exact, kids that is) school. I'd like to give each person 2 loaves... your advice will help me bake gift worthy bread.

Do you have a recipe for Pugliese that you would suggest?

Thanks again,

John

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

I like seeing a timeline for breads--good job! I'm surprised your French breads were getting too dark on the bottom. It seems like at that hydration level it wouldn't be a problem. I'd rather you try lowering your initial hearth temps or reduce bake times just a bit rather than baking them after the sourdough...

My opinion, for what it's worth... Rye breads are classically done at low temps, so I'd move them to the end of the bake cycle. My sourdough levain (no commercial yeast) loaves take 6-8 hours to rise properly before I bake them. (I do my proofing in a bit lower temps than most folks...70-73F.) If I was working your system, I'd size, shape, & form my levain loaves first so they would have a longer proof time. I also don't like my sesame seeds breads done at higher temps because the seeds can produce a burnt flavor I don't like. I'd be looking at baking them just before the rye.

If it was me, I'd bake breads in this order starting at 575F (ish):
Baguettes & Pugliese
French/Italian
Sourdough with rye/wheat component
Sesame/lighter flavor profile breads
Ryes & Challah types (sweet breads)

Just for fun I attached two pdf versions of my Levain formula spreadsheet (one for two loaves and the other for 10 loaves).

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Thanks for the encouragement and advice.

Here is what I did this week:

Make pre-ferment (poolish) at 2pm on Friday for French Bread, Semolina/Sesame, and a rye sour for Rye bread. (3 separate tubs)
(begin fire in oven around this same time for pizza Friday night)
Make the levain for sourdough at 10pm. (another tub)
These are kept in our laundry room with a space heater at about 76F.
Wake up at 5:30.
Add flour and water to french bread poolish for autolyse followed by the same for the semolina bread autolyse, and then the same to the levain for the sourdough bread.
After 20/30 minutes I began kneading the french bread dough, then the other two doughs followed.
Finished mixing/kneading by 7:15 and placed the tubs of dough back in the laundry room with space heater. (I left the dough alone for the next 90 minutes while I went to a prayer breakfast)
At 9am I stretched and folded the three doughs and then I did that 3 more times for French and semolina, and 5 more times for the sourdough. (at 20 to 30 minute intervals)
10:00 I add the rest of the recipe to the rye sour, mixed and put back in laundry room to proof
10:30 pre-shaped/rested/shaped the French bread into batards and boules.
11:00 same with the semolina loaves (all batards)
11:15 same with rye loaves
12:00 loaded the oven (580F hearth) with French batards
12:30 loaded the oven with French boules
1:00 loaded the oven with semolina loaves
1:30 loaded the oven with rye loaves
1:30 preshaped/rested/shaped sourdough into boules (12 loaves)
I thought the loaves were under proofed after an hour so I kept waiting
4:00 I finally couldn't wait any longer so I loaded the oven (500 F hearth) with sourdough.

The bottom of half of my french bread batards were burnt (still edible, but not good enough to give away to friends). I am using a probe thermometer and all the loaves were between 200 and 210 from all the batches. Every loaf weighed between 445g (semolina) and 615g (sourdough).

Mike,
Based on your advice/experience I think next week I will try to bake the sourdough before the French bread, rather than after. I just don't feel like it is proofing as well as the yeast breads. Maybe my starter is not as good as it is going to get. I began the starter a couple of weeks ago and fed it for 12 days on the counter. I used it in a bake on 11/29 and the put it in the refrigerator until Wed. of last week. I sat it on the counter and fed it 4 times before using it for the levain on Friday night.

I know there is no short cut and I am enjoying the trial and error. Without the advice of this forum and some books to read I'd be totally lost.

Thanks,

John

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Nice bakes and progress you're making! ...and the fact you and your neighbors are enjoying the bread speaks volumes...

I prefer to have my bread baking temps in the 550-575F range and get good color development (IMO) in the crust. I think you will have better browning if you bump temps up a bit for your sourdough...my gut reaction is that the 500F start temp for the "light" loaves was just too low to achieve good color in the time allowed. Definitely use a temp probe to determine the timing necessary to achieve 205-210F internal loaf temps. My best baguettes are done in the 550-575F range (15 min total bake time). My normal procedure is to make sure my oven's equalized in my preferred temp range and then bake the baguettes & Pugliese first, followed by my sourdough boules and wheat based breads in the 525-535F range. In my experience, over proofed dough will also result in paler brown colors (less sugar).

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be: week 4

Week 4 of bread baking was more successful than the weeks before. I am learning to bake bread; having never done it before the learning curve is rather steep. (Like today I put fresh yeast into the autolyse dough without proofing the yeast in water!)

I baked 44 loaves (about 45 pounds of dough). The crumb on the sourdough was much better, and the oven spring on all the loaves was improved. I added some vital wheat gluten to each of the batches to help.

I made french bread, sourdough, rye, and golden sesame. The golden sesame was the best!

1 question: The sourdough crust (light colored boules) did not caramelize, why? I steamed the oven and loaded 12 loaves and then steamed again for 15 seconds before closing the door. Is this color a sign of over-proofing (or under)? From the time I began the levain to the time I put the loaves in the oven was 18 hours. 10 hours between initial mix/knead and oven. The dough was always between 75 and 70 degrees F. The oven was 500 F when I loaded the sourdough. Any thoughts?

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Again, thanks for the response it is helpful.

I will have to watch those videos.

When I press the loaf to "test" if it is proofed my finger indent comes back about half-way. I noticed that when I transferred the loaves from basket to peel the boule seemed to flatten a little, and from couche (dish towel) to peel the batard did the same. Another problem might be my final shaping technique and not getting a taut surface? I guess a lot is trial and error... as it should be.

The sourdough was 100% ultragrain which claims to have 30% whole wheat but finely ground.

Well, I'm still having fun. My wife bought me 15 more thrift store baskets for proofing today and the digital scale and thermometer are on their way. Saturday is coming!

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Hi John,

You must have many friends to be baking all that bread to give away! The texture looks nice on the sourdough from what I can tell via a couple photos. Was the sourdough primarily whole grain also? If so I think you are getting a pretty nice loaf there. You can't expect a whole grain to be just like a loaf made with white flour.

Over proofing could be an issue.. does it seem like they just deflate a lot when you remove them from the container they are doing their final rise in? How are you gaging them to determine if they are ready for the oven? Is the dough mostly bouncing back when you gently poke them?

I think adding some gluten would be worth trying since you are working with many whole grains and adding other heavy ingredients like the olives. It should help with the oven spring by allowing the dough to be more elastic and hold the CO2 better while rising and to give it more 'pop' when you put it in the oven. An alternative would be to use a very high protein unbleached bread flour for a portion of the blend, and the whole grain for the remainder.

Have you watched the two videos posted in the wood fired cooking and videos section? SCChris posted one about Aaron Brunet in NZ and another about Tartine bakery. There are actually two videos in the Tartine bakery thread. I find watching how the dough responds as they are handling, shaping and baking really fascinating!

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Well, that was a lot of work. I ended up making about 55lbs. of dough and baked 38 loaves of bread. Too much work for one person (a beginner who has very little understanding of what he is doing) by hand. Half the bread was made with a preferment and the other half was made with a levain. I was pleased with how well the oven held up for 5 loads of bread. My cook temps ranged from 540 to 490. On a few of the loaves the oven spring was much better, but many were still dense. I think this has to do with a few things: the use of a higher percentage of whole wheat/coarse stone ground AP flour, poor slashing technique, and possibly (though I'm not sure about this) some over-proofed loaves. Nevertheless, the bread tastes good and I have given it away to many friends who seemed happy to receive.

Take a look at the pics and offer any comments or suggestions... the boule is sourdough and the batard is rosemary and olive.

Next Saturday I am going to scale back and work with small batches and try to pay close attention to what I'm doing. I also bought some vital wheat gluten which should help with oven spring?

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Poolish (aka biga?) for 14-16 hours then bulk proof for 3 and final proof for 2. Mixed ingredients into loaves between bulk and final... Tomorrow I'm going for 25+ loaves so we'll see. Half sourdough (I might add some ADY to some because I'm not sure if my starter is up to par, although it has been fed for 11 days and twice a day for the last 7 I'm still nervous). The other half will get olives, rosemary, thyme, garlic, etc.?

I'm going to 75% hydration on most batches tomorrow, but I'm not sure I'll get the open crumb I'm looking for because I'll be using more whole grains then last week... go figure!

I have10 lbs. of an organic stone ground all-purpose flour (seems pretty coarse). I have 20 lbs. of ultragrain blend, and 10 lbs of King Arthur organic whole wheat. I'm just playing around trying to figure out a balance between good looking, tasting, and healthy bread.

As an aside: I did to pizza bakes to day (lunch and dinner). I'm using Caputo 00. the lunch dough was 65% hydration mixed, kneaded, divided and put in the fridge over night and then brought out three hours before use today. The dinner dough was 70% hydration, mixed, kneaded, bulk proof for 3 hours, divided, and final proof for 3 hours. I liked, and so did my wife, the 70% a lot better... it did not charr near as much. Until today all my pizza dough had been 65%. The oven was at the same temp for both bakes.

I will report back with pictures after tomorrow's bake.

Thanks again,

John