Nice bread slash

[Dutchoven]

Re: Nice bread slash

Can't believe I didn't ask this before but the last message seems to have answered it. Are you using a pre-ferment? If not I might suggest it.
Best
Dutch
Oh, sorry that I can't help with that back hand.

[james]

Re: Nice bread slash

Dutch,

Good thought.

I've been cooking with a pre-ferment for years, but I feel like the progress that I have made (with a lot of coaching) on dough handling has made a bigger impact on my bread. Good dough handling, without a pre-ferment seems to beat pre-ferment based dough with lesser handling and shaping techniques.

Once I get the dough handling under better control -- keeping it simple by changing fewer variables, I can go back and start getting more flavor and texture from the pre-ferment.

Does that make sense?

James

btw - I think I am putting too much weight on my front foot when I am setting up to hit the backhand. :-)

[Dutchoven]

Re: Nice bread slash

I agree with the dough handling. My wife and I spent a great deal of time learning to handle and shape doughs using direct fermentations. We always used a lot of fresh herbs and olives and stuff in the doughs to create some great flavors. Now we're working with preferments and will then be able to move on to create more complex flavors in those.

I'll have to ask my wife about the tennis front foot weight issue since she plays raquetball and says she has a tennis swing.
Best
Dutch

[james]

Re: Nice bread slash

Here is my latest attempt. I stuck with the same flour (100% tipo 00), 65% hydration, 10gr salt and cut back to 6gr fresh yeast. I made the dough last night around 10PM, and popped it straight in the refrigerator.

After 12 hours, it has risen significantly less than the time before, but it still collapsed when I slashed it. Though a lot less than the time before. It was firmer and easy to slash, but it still sagged.

I will cut back on yeast next time -- again. After that, I will try cutting back a little on the water. Hopefully I can keep the 65% to get lighter, holey crumb, without it collapsing.

This is all a lot of fun, and I would recommend trying it. I hand mixed the dough after cleaning up the kitchen -- it's fun getting in touch with the physical part of bread making.

The loaf is in the oven and I will take more photos on the final product.
James

[james]

Re: Nice bread slash

Well, I'm still not where I want to be.

It has occurred to me that I did not do a bulk fermentation at room temperature before shaping my boule and putting it the refrigerator -- so I am thinking that the dough did not have enough time to fully develop before I started retarding it in the refrigerator.

The crust is a dark brown, but it does not have as much of the carmel color that I like; and it seems a little dense -- which I think is the result of the boule collapsing. It also doesn't have those nice little blisters on the crust.

What causes those?

More trials to come. This is becoming one man's search to make better bread -- I will never surrender.
James

[CanuckJim]

Re: Nice bread slash

James,

Depends. I usually go for a two hour bulk fermentation, then shape, then into the fridge. Then again, I'm usually working with much slower wild yeasts. What you're looking for is a dough that has doubled in size before dividing and shaping. I have a dough doubler bucket, graduated, from King Arthur Flour that I sometimes use for this. Another trick is to buy a small graduated glass measuring beaker. Tear off a piece of dough, put it in the beaker, and watch until it has doubled. That way you don't have to worry so much about measuring bulk dough.

The blistering commonly comes from overnight fermentation, and I'm surprised you didn't get any this time. Also, you're using 100 percent Tipo 00, which is comparatively low in gluten. I'd try a 50/50 mix with hard unbleached bread flour if you can get it. This mix will give you a better crumb.

I don't work much with fresh yeast, so I'm a bit in the dark with it. In fact, it's impossible to get around here.

I'd keep messing with the amount of yeast until it comes out right. What is the temperature of your fridge? Should be 38-40 F. If it's too warm, or if you have a warm spot in it, the dough will over-rise.

Jim

[james]

Re: Nice bread slash

This time I did a couple of hours of bulk fermenation, shaped the boule and refrigerated overnight. I only used 4gr a fresh yeast -- it sure is active stuff. I have heard that it is supposed to be very active, and they are right.

Jim, the flour is definitely low gluten. In fact, I am out of Caputo and happen to be out of Barilla and the stores were closed all weekend for a national holiday, so I am using the most generic of flour that you can get at the local convenience store. It costs .27 cents a kilo. It goes to show that you can get pretty far with basic flour (and no preferments). It's amazing how important basic dough prep and handling really is.

The boule did not sag before I put it in the oven (finally) and I got the oven spring to pop the top of the bread. Pretty funny.

I guess I have to work on the artistry of my slash.

More to come.
James

[james]

Re: Nice bread slash

One more thing. I just noticed this when I was comparing this loaf, and a previous one. Look how much higher the new loaf (not overproofed) is compared with the one that collapsed.

One last thing. The baked weight of a 500gr recipe is about 720gr. A lot of the weight of the water cooks out.

James

[Dutchoven]

Re: Nice bread slash

Nice job James, looks really nice! For boules we sometimes just go for a simple # slash on the top. When we have some different flavors in the same shape we have a "spiral cut", X's also work well and you might think about scissors with a bunch of little nips, call it the "Bart Simpson"
Also wanted to ask do you keep you stone in the oven or have bricks in your oven. If not you might want to do so even if you are not baking directly on them. We recently tried that and the oven maintains its temperatures much easier.
Best
Dutch
Best
Dutch

[CanuckJim]

Re: Nice bread slash

James,

Artistry, shmartisty, the bread looks great this time. You've done it. Congrats. Look at the spring you got, perfect. The volume is just what you're looking for in a good hearth bread. If you want more color on the crust, just bake it a little longer at a lower temp. Looks like you vented the steam when you should have, too. For hearth breads, I'm usually looking for a protein count in the flour of around 13 percent. That will give you a well defined crumb, and pockets that are shiny with gluten. I think you've controlled the variables to such an extent that you've hit a home run.

Jim

[Dutchoven]

Re: Nice bread slash

James,
I do agree with Jim...although nice to look at taste and texture still keys for me.

Just thought I would share a baking experiment of my own. Made the dough and did bulk ferment yesterday and shaped them late last night then popped into fridge. These were done inside in the gas oven that I have firebrick splits in to improve recovery. Straight from the fridge to a 500 degree oven after my wife did the cuts. Steamed twice and then turned oven down. Some of the best bread we have made...bar none. Having friends for fondue tonight. I will share photos of the desserts later.

Fantastic advice Jim, think we'll bake nearly all of our breads this way from now on.

All the best!!!
Dutch

[CanuckJim]

Re: Nice bread slash

DO,

Glad the results turned out so well for you. The color of the crust is very good on your breads. Part of the reason for the difference in color is that this sort of retardation method gives the enzymes time to break out sugars from the startch in the dough because the yeast has been slowed down. The rich color comes from those sugars caramelizing on the crust. The effect is more pronounced in a hotter WFO, but you done good.

Always makes me feel good to see another fine bread baker out there. Maybe you and James should go at it commercially .

Jim

[Dutchoven]

Re: Nice bread slash

Jim
Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words, I value your opinion greatly in such a short time. These really were fantastic tasting and if it were not for you I probably never would have tried this method. I can't wait to hear what our guests think of these when we have our dinner tonight. My wife and I also can't wait to do this in the WFDutchoven...hopefully by the weekend .
The commercial idea could be happening soon...for my wife and I at least
Thanks again!
All the best!
Dutch

[james]

Re: Nice bread slash

Dutch,
Your cut loaves look great. Nice snips, and the crust looks great.

Swiss fondue? I hope you take photos. Your bread will be perfect.
James

[Dutchoven]

Re: Nice bread slash

Well the fondue was a homerun. We had cheese fondue with shrimp, chicken chunks, vegetables and of course the BREAD. I unfortunately read your reply too late and sadly there was nothing left of any of the entree portion of our meal but.....



I have attatched some of the dessert portion of the meal...still had some bread left for the chocolate...and lots of fruit, marshmallows and peanut brittle...fantastic...
Once again...all the best!!!
Dutch