Playing with sourdough

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

NOW you're getting picky, which is a good thing. Take a long hard look at the progressive pictures you've posted. Each shows a marked improvement over the last. Just keep it up. The joke goes that Yitzak Perlman (sp?) came up the steps from the New York subway one day. Obviously lost, he was looking around when he spotted Dizzy Gillespie leaning against a lamp post. "Excuse, me, young man," says Perlman, "can you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?" Gillespie thinks a moment, rubbing his chin, then says, "That's easy, man: practice, practice, practice."

It is possible to add IDY to sourdough recipes. It's called spiking and will bring the loaves to the oven sooner, but I don't think it will change your results that much. I'd suggest you keep working with the starter until it matures a bit more.

Like ovens, levains have personalities. Let yours hit its stride before making large variable changes.

Jim

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Oh another reason to get my oven done ASAP...I cracked the glass in my kitchen oven when I spilled some water on it during my steam injection. The wife says after its fixed, I can't cook bread in it anymore. Guess it won't get fixed anytime soon!

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Ok I have a question about my starter. Since I've had it, it has not been able to EVER double in size. I believe Jim said wild yeast usually doesn't double, but mine struggles to even get to 1.5, and thats only after sitting out at room temperature (~73F) for over 24 hrs. I used to keep it in the fridge and feed it once a week, but for the past week I've kept it out and fed it once ever 12 to 24 hrs depending on how active it seemed to be (streaks of bubbles/foam on top). The smell is there, the bread tastes good when i cook with it (although its always quite dense, lacking a nice hole structure in the crumb), but it just won't expand like I'd like. Is my particular strain of yeast still just too young? Will maturation only increase the depth of flavor, or will the yeast get stronger as well? Also, does my flour have anything to do with it? I've been using KA unbleached bread flour, and feeding in at least a 1:2 ratio.

[asudavew]

Re: Playing with sourdough

cheat....

feed it some sugar

then watch out!

[DrakeRemoray]

Re: Playing with sourdough

I don't think my CULTURE acutally doubles, other than doubling by ingredients...The BREAD doubles, but I don't think the culture does...

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Unfortunately neither do it for me.

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

Nope, the culture will not double, as Drake says. It's the dough you want to almost double. Bit of a confusion here, because you want to double the weight of the culture, say 1 lb starter to a half pound flour and a half pound water. Try this: double your starter and let it sit out for 14 to 16 hours, then use it. Twenty four hours is too long and might invite some unwanted guests to the party. The flour you are using is fine. Don't change it.

Cultures improve over time, no doubt, both in flavor and activity. I suspect, and it's only a suspicion, that there is something going on in your kneading or handling techniques that's affecting the crumb. Can't look over your shoulder during production, though, so it remains a suspicion. It seems you're doing everything in the right direction, but there's a glitch somewhere. Problem is to find it.

Jim

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Thanks guys. I'm sure my handling has quite a bit to do with it. I have to knead by hand, so I'm not quite sure if I'm kneading enough. Although, I've never had my barm or dough come close to doubling, so I'm not quite sure if thats me or the yeast there. Hopefully I'll be getting a mixer soon, so at least I'll be able to narrow things down more after that. In the meantime I'll just keep trying and learning from my mistakes and successes. Thanks again!

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

Do you use the windowpane test to determine if your kneading is complete? If not, you should try it for one batch. For another, stretch and fold the dough twice, evenly timed, during the bulk rise. It may be that the gluten matrix is not fully developed. I'm wondering if a video clip of these two techniques might be in order. What says the Forum?

Jim

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Jim

The videos would be great! I've been using Hammelman's folding technique lately as well as his calculations for water temperature. Both have helped but I think I still need to adjust my friction factor. I've been doing the window pane test since the beginning but I think my qualification for what passes has gone up each time as well. When I started I believe I was only slightly developing my gluten, and now I think I'm only getting to a medium development although I'm really not sure. I learned this after seeing the pictures at Wild Yeast
In the beginning my first windowpanes looked like the first picture, and how they more resemble the second. I don't think I've ever achieved the third picture. I imagine its also because I get to my target temperature during kneading before my gluten is properly developed.

[DrakeRemoray]

Re: Playing with sourdough

For the record, I have not gotten very satisfactory windowpane tests, but have been doing the folding and that seems to really help.

Drake

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Drake,

It really depends on method. Reinhart, for example, espouses pretty full kneading by machine while still keeping within temp limits. People who use similar methods should be striving for a good windowpane. Hamelman, by contrast, recommends very short mixing times with one or two goes at the strecth and fold. This procedure accomplishes the same end; it's just that Hamelman is most frequently dealing with levain doughs, and he's wary of overheating. Reinhart, though he does do sourdoughs, also tends to use a lot of IDY, which is more tolerant of higher dough temps. Different strokes, I guess.

Jim

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Well my culture finally woke up, so we'll see if that makes any difference in the outcome of my baking. Yesterday morning I fed it and when I got home 12 hours later, it had doubled. I fed it again and this morning it had doubled again. This has NEVER happened before, to either my culture or dough. So before I fed it this morning, I took a bit out to make the liquid levain for Hammelman's Vermont Sourdough. Hopefully it will be ripe when I get home so that I can proceed as planned.

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Ok I had another go with the Vermont Sourdough, but this time my culture seemed to be a bit more active so we'll see if that made any difference. I'll be able to cut it open in the morning. I also have two loaves of olive levain proofing in the fridge. I'll cook those tomorrow.

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Here's a cross section of the loaf. The crumb is much improved from anything I've made thus far w/o using IDY. Its still not where it needs to be, but I imagine that has a bit to do with the liquid levain I used. Hammelman's recipe has you add 2 tbs of culture to a few cups of flour and water and wait 12-16 hrs for it to ripen. Well with my culture not being as active as it could have been, the liquid levain had only got to about 1.3-1.5 times its volume, and I was crunched for time so I used it as is. The culture is pretty active now though...more than doubling in volume after feeding it and waiting 10-12 hrs at 70F. Anyway, the crumb is quite lighter than before, and although you can't really see it in the pictures, there is a good hole structure as well (still needs work though). Before the crumb was about as dense as a batch of brownies made with two eggs. So slowly but surely I'm getting there. I also like how the crust has been coming out lately. Deep brown, crunchy and chewy at the same time. I just need to figure out what to do with all this bread I keep making. Only so much two people can eat before it goes stale. There's always bread pudding, I suppose.