for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

[Thirties]

Any improvements to King Arthur's Bread Flour for USA Northeasterners, or anywhere in the USA, for that matter?

I'm not complaining about the KA stuff, it works for me just fine, and it is available at the local supermart. I'm just wondering if there is a better one out there for pain a l'ancienne.

[Thirties]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Never mind . . . I saw the price of Guista (sp) flour. I'll stay with my King Art!

[Dutchoven]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

What are you looking for? Higher hydration? We don't use KA bread flour...only some of the whole flours...we are very challenged for ingredient here as far as bread flours go so we have to experiment with different things to condition the doughs...ascorbic acid...vital wheat gluten...etc...
Dutch

[Thirties]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

I'm looking for anything that will excite the taste buds. I only make pain a l'ancienne and it's "family" (pizza, small rolls, whatever). I do not work woth whole wheat or similar flours.

As I said, I am very successful and satisfied with KA bread flour, but one is always curious how another flour will work. for the record, I tried KA all-purpose flour, and their bread flour is makes a much tastier pain a l'ancienne loaf. Yes, it gives a moister crumb as well as a better (for me) flavor.

[james]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

If you want to experiment with flour, try Giustos. Most excellent. Pricy, and you have to pay for shipping, but I think it's worth it when you are really going for it.

Giusto's - Giusto's Home Page

Besides, the cost of flour, compared with a so-so $5.50 "artisan" loaf in the supermarket, is relatively inexpensive.

James

[gjbingham]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Ouch! Not only is the golf expensive in Pebble Beach, the price of bread is out in space as well! How much is a loaf of Bambi bread?

[Thirties]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Ouch! Not only is the golf expensive in Pebble Beach, the price of bread is out in space as well! How much is a loaf of Bambi bread?

??? Whaaa?

[Dutchoven]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Thirties
???? We refer to Wonder/Sunbeam/whatever as "Bambi bread"...the kind you can smush into a something resembling a golf ball!
I'll check out some things that might help you with your bread flavor!
Dutch

[MoonshineBaker]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

James, DutchOven et al, what exact type of Giusto's or other flour do you use... for example, Giusto's Baker's Choice or Ultimate Performer? Though I'm following the instructions in James's videos on this web site and using high hydrations, I'm really not getting the open crumb in my ciabatta and pain a l'ancienne that I see pictured on this web site or like in Reinhart's books. I guess my question is how high or low does the gluten need to be? I've tried lower total gluten by mixing 80% Giusto's Bakers choice (13% gluten) with Caputo Tipo 000 (~9% gluten) which was slightly better than straight Giusto's Baker Choice. And I tried the other way with adding 5-6% gluten flour (70%gluten) which was a more open crumb but really heavy otherwise. Or,maybe, I'm just not handling the dough correctly somehow...so I'll forge on, "practice makes perfect"...Many thanks to my wife and neighbors who like to eat my mistakes...Any suggestions are appreciated. Richard

[CanuckJim]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Richard,

I've made the Ancienne recipe many, many times and taught it to my workshop students many, many times. Universally, I've found that it's not so much the flour (long as it's hard and around 12 percent), but problems occur in handling, leading to deflation, leading to a dense crumb.

The mantra I give my students is: "Do not hesitate, do not overhandle, just do it." High hydration doughs will only accept minimal handling, so I also point out, "If you can find any way to reduce the amount of handling, do that, too."

Jim

[Thirties]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Jim, I agree. Last weekend I made a batch of a l'ancienne using the cheapest bread flour on the supermarket shelf -- General Mills Harvest King. The bread came out absolutely wonderful. My previous batch had been an over hydrated and over kneaded King Arthur Bread Flour. The K'Art batch was dense and without much oven spring. So, yes, it's not really about the flour, as long as you are using flour that is in the ballpark.

ps: I love making rolls (4" round) with the a l'ancienne. The crust to crumb is very high compared with loaves.

[james]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

What are the tricks to a really good pain a l'ancienne? I can think of a few.

Overnight
Ice water
Hit the really high hydration mark
Gentle dough handling
Getting the extremely wet dough into a basic baguette shape without destroying it

Any other ideas?

On the flour, I really like the Unbleached Artisan Bread flour (I haven't ordered the organic, though I probably should) and the Whole Wheat Stone Ground (medium). The white flour makes a good baguette -- where you don't want a really heavy flour.

My two cents.
James

[Dutchoven]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

A good healthy helping of flour on your work surface...to go with gentle dough handling...when we made our best ancienne the water was about 34 degrees...so the ice water is paramount...and IMHO I don't think you can get it too cold...as for flour type...if you know how far you can hydrate your flour before ending up with batter I think you can make great bread, like our ovens heating characteristics, flours have different breaking points...most important thing to us about flour is that it is fresh...my $.02
Best
Dutch

What are the tricks to a really good pain a l'ancienne? I can think of a few.

Overnight
Ice water
Hit the really high hydration mark
Gentle dough handling
Getting the extremely wet dough into a basic baguette shape without destroying it

Any other ideas?

On the flour, I really like the Unbleached Artisan Bread flour (I haven't ordered the organic, though I probably should) and the Whole Wheat Stone Ground (medium). The white flour makes a good baguette -- where you don't want a really heavy flour.

My two cents.
James

[Dutchoven]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

I agree....made some rolls with left over scraps one time and they were fantastic....ciabatta is also great with this method
Dutch



I love making rolls (4" round) with the a l'ancienne. The crust to crumb is very high compared with loaves.[/QUOTE]

[james]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

A good healthy helping of flour on your work surface...to go with gentle dough handling...

I'll second that. I'm making a boule for dinner tonight and accidently added too much water (70%). My "dough" was more like batter, but I put a lot of flour on the counters and made the boule shape without destroying the dough.

We'll see how it comes out.
James