for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

[MoonshineBaker]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

James, who makes the Unbleached Artisan Bread flour that you mentioned? Richard

[james]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Giusto's Home Page - Welcome to Giusto's Specialty Foods. Highly recommended for bread.
James

[MoonshineBaker]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Last week I made a ciabatta (73% hydration, minimal handling) following the general methods in the Hamelman Bread Book. The flour was 40% Caputo and 60% Giusto's Baker's Choice. I baked it at ~475*F in my wood fired oven to an internal temperature of 203-05*F. I got good reviews from my wife and a few friends who were able to eat it a few hours after it was baked. The crumb was open and had a nice shine to it; the crust was a nice brown and was initially a bit crunchy but became hard by the next morning - it had been stored in a open plastic, food grade bag. The ciabatta was good, not great in the first few hours -but a bit tough after 12 hours. I am a bit disappointed in that it didn't have a really crispy-crunchy crust that lasted more than a short while. I've been to restaurants recently that serve a ciabatta like bread that is more light crust on the outside and open light crumb on the inside. (The flavor wasn't as good as the bread I'm making; it seems like the makers of the restaurant bread didn't use a biga that hydrolyzed the wheat starches for 12-16 hours.) Soooo- from previous postings, I know handling is critical. Any thoughts? Maybe more Caputo = 60+% to 40-% Giusto's? I'll try hardly folding or handling the dough at all, too. I'll try again Thursday, 7/3. Thanks, Richard

[MoonshineBaker]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Last week I made a ciabatta (73% hydration, minimal handling) following the general methods in the Hamelman Bread Book. The flour was 40% Caputo and 60% Giusto's Baker's Choice. I baked it at ~475*F in my wood fired oven to an internal temperature of 203-05*F. I got good reviews from my wife and a few friends who were able to eat it a few hours after it was baked. The crumb was open and had a nice shine to it; the crust was a nice brown and was initially a bit crunchy but became hard by the next morning - it had been stored in a open plastic, food grade bag. The ciabatta was good, not great in the first few hours -but a bit tough after 12 hours. I am a bit disappointed in that it didn't have a really crispy-crunchy crust that lasted more than a short while. I've been to restaurants recently that serve a ciabatta like bread that is more light crust on the outside and open light crumb on the inside. (The flavor wasn't as good as the bread I'm making; it seems like the makers of the restaurant bread didn't use a biga that hydrolyzed the wheat starches for 12-16 hours.) Soooo- from previous postings, I know handling is critical. Any thoughts? Maybe more Caputo = 60+% to 40-% Giusto's? I'll try hardly folding or handling the dough at all, too. I'll try again Thursday, 7/3. Thanks, Richard

"If you don't succeed the first time, try, try again!"

[james]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

What do our pro bakers think?

I need a minute to put my thoughts together. I don't think the blend should make a huge difference -- though more of the Tipo 00 will make the Ciabatta lighter.

Autolyse? How long did your dough ferment?
Really light handling? A gentle tri-fold?
You could try a lot hotter oven -- 550?F, where you shoot for the caramel brown color on the crust.

How long was the bake? I'm thinking the oven could be hotter.

Again, what do our pro's think?
James

[SpringJim]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

Where's CJ?

...busy building ovens?

[Alfredo]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

SJ,
As you may have gathered, he and I generally have a fairly lively email exchange going. I think I've had one message from him in the past two weeks, and that was in the order of, "Crazy busy with installations."

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may (and june and july and so on, as long as the weather holds)

[MoonshineBaker]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

James, Thanks for the thoughts. Pretty closely following Hamelman's directions for "Ciabatta with Poolish", page 107 in his book, Bread, I did a room temperature poolish for 16 hours, etc. I have baked at 550*F but end up burning the bottoms of my bread. I did get a nice brown crust at 475*F after about 20-25 minutes. The crust just wasn't as crackly and light as I would hope it to be. The crumb was OK but was a bit tough. The flavor was complex from the long pre-fermentation. After dividing and shaping, I did the final fermentation for an hour or two on a floured linen clouche. Would the linen have an effect on the crust? Again, practice makes perfect. I'll keep on truckin', Richard

[james]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

I don't think you do your final proof of a ciabatta in a linen clouche. Try getting that dog-bone shape on the floured surface and let it proof there, while covered.

Have you looked at the technique photos for ciabatta in The Bread Baker's Apprentice? Those are good.

Ciabatta has less of a boule structure than a traditional hearth bread, and I think some bread books miss that distinction. That's why it is so crackly, light and full of huge holes.

James

[james]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

I am thinking if you get your loaf lighter, with more air holes, you can bake it at 500?+ in 15 minutes and not burn it.

Possible?
James

[Dutchoven]

Re: for pain a l'ancienne, is there anything better than kingArt's bread flour?

I am thinking if you get your loaf lighter, with more air holes, you can bake it at 500?+ in 15 minutes and not burn it.

Possible?
James

Hey guys!
This is definitely possible...the right amount of hydration is really key and possibly the use of brown rice flour as opposed to wheat flour on the bottom of the loaf. We couche proof our ciabatta and actually sometimes basket proof them and ususally have no issues with the crust. I think your hydration is the issue in the toughness question and, no offense, lighter handling. As for the crust...vent the steam closer to halfway through baking and them wait a minute or so longer than you think you should if you want real snap...you'll smell the loaves and want to pull them but just wait a minute and the smell will change just a bit...then pull them..it is the result of a longer, cooler, drier bake.
How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
Best
Dutch