First loaves of bread

[MK1]

Re: First loaves of bread

Jay,
I made about 12lbs this weekend, about 7 of Reinhart Pain Ancienne (which I call Pain Gosselin) and 5 of the Champagne. The oven wasn't cooled until midnight so my son and I were out there late.
I noticed a big difference in having that much bread in the oven. Crust was excellent compared to smaller batches, (the crumb on the Gosselins never gave a problem previously) and the caramelization was up to scratch for the first time. I find the flavor of the retarded Gosselin to be unique. From my homebrewing experience I'm pretty sure I detect some yeast derived diacityl (buttery) and some DMS (corn). These are considered flaws in most beers but I think quite nice in bread.
Also the location of the loaves in the oven was no longer critical. I steamed just after loading and 2mins in as CanuckJim suggests. Thanks for the suggestions by all in this thread.
I'm not very experienced at using the oven or modern bread making techniques but I've been using the Jeff Versano method of mixing and gluten development. I hate kneading and I don't want to burn up my mixer so I like the initial wet kneading with only 75% of the flour in the bowl for 5min on 1/3 rpm or less and then adding the rest after. I also keep the hydration at 65% or better. The Gosselins can't really be handled much at all but seem to spring wonderfully with a huge open crumb. I should have taken pictures.
Another technique I use is to steam with the bottom of the door pulled towards me and and just enough of a crack at the top to insert my wand.

Mark

[egalecki]

Re: First loaves of bread

You know, David, I was just thinking- wild yeast, or sourdough, is a bit unpredictable in the heat and humidity anyway. You're in the hot and humid now, right? So the rises right now aren't going to be the same as they will be later, when it's cooler. I had a terrible time of it back in June when things got hotter here- bread that was much more sour than I was happy with, and weird surface textures and loaves that flattened out on me. It all boiled down to needing to decrease all the rise times- and preferably find a slightly cooler place to rise in. I cut a couple of hours off the sponge phase, which cured the overly sour part, left the bulk rise the same but put the bowl in the base cabinet the air conditioning comes out of (it's in the toe kick, and that cabinet is at least 5 to 7 degrees cooler than ambient air), which slowed down the rise and seems to have fixed the weird surface texture, and I decreased the rise after shaping a bit- I just poke it to see if it's ready.

The point being- once you get it right, things will change and you'll have to adjust again. With wild yeast, the timelines aren't hard and fast. You might just want to try a few regular yeast breads from the BBA to get the hang of it for a while- keep feeding your starter- make pancakes or something with it- but try something that might be a bit more predictable too. Trust me- pain a l'ancienne is good to eat as well! You need to get some feel for doughs- try a soggy wet ciabatta dough, do a semolina bread (if you can find the flour, but I can get it here in the wilds of SW Va, so I bet you can too), try the Italian loaf. Try doing the baking in your inside oven with a pizza stone. You can humidify the oven with boiling water in a preheated pan.

Bread is just magic stuff- I never get tired of combining such simple ingredients and getting completely different breads each time! Play with it and get some experience, I guess is what I'm telling you in my really long-winded fashion. Don't frustrate yourself with one bread, especially sourdough in the summer!

[texassourdough]

Re: First loaves of bread

I agree with Dutch and Elizabeth. Given your timing it has to be overproofed but not too badly based on the crumb and color. Your 20 minute bake is awfully short. Hard to believe you really baked the interior that fast. And I think tensioning is important. And I think it helps keep the dough from sticking to the basket - a bit. It also arranges the air pockets for better oven spring. But it has to be done gently. And that takes experience and practice.

The crumb looks pretty good but perhaps a bit "uniform" which some like some want more uneven. What was your baker's percentage? I am going to guess it could go up a couple of percent and give you a more artisanal crumb. But it looks good so....

Bravo! And keep at it. Soon the stars will align and you will make a perfect loaf and you will think you have figured it out - and then....you will bake for years trying to regain that elusive perfection! (This is strictly for humor!)

Way to go!
Jay

[Gromit]

Re: First loaves of bread

Elizabeth,

We use refrigerated & dehumidified air around here in the summer. My dough has never seen anything other than 76F during the day and 78F at night. I am afraid that the winter will drive me crazy with fluctuating temperatures and humidity levels. We rarely run the furnace in the winter, so the temps in the house will range from 66 to 78 with outside humidity from 10% to 100%.

I'm not at all frustrated yet--I am enjoying eating the bread too much for that. I do find it humorous that there are so many different ways to ruin a loaf. Remember, I have only been posting the BEST of each batch. You should see the rejects!

In his blog post today, (Peter Reinhart's Weblog) Reinhart mentioned a blogger who had started a BBA Challenge where bakers would weekly bake a new bread from the Apprentice and post pics and compare results. She already has 200 people who have joined in. With a Washington Post story about it today, I am afraid that it might get too big really quickly to be any sort of community. If there are other bakers around here who want to take up that sort of project, I would LOVE to join in.

[texassourdough]

Re: First loaves of bread

Actually, David, winter isn't so bad. I switch from my 4X expansion schedule, 100 grams of refrigerated starter plus 400 of water and flour (200 each) for 4X. That sits out overnight. Then 2000 grams in the morning (about 1300 flour and 700 water) to get the right BP (a second 4X). In the winter I do a 3X expansion on the same schedule (air temp around 68) and get very similar resuls and times.

In between and the times vary. But with experience you will start to know when the dough is ready. Don't try to let the dough double. It only needs to rise 50 to 80 percent depending on your yeast, etc. (50% is low IMO but there are bakers who bake at that point - it will typically give LOTS OF RIP!).

Keep Baking!
Jay

[Gromit]

Re: First loaves of bread

Jay,

The 20 minutes was a guestimation; I did not time it. The hydration was 65% ignoring the wheat germ, and 62% taking the germ in to account. The dough probably behaves as something in between 62% and 65% since I don't think the germ soaks up water to the same degree as the flour. The crumb definitely had a different feel in the mouth compared to the previous loaves.

What are the visible signs that would show an over-proofed loaf?

[egalecki]

Re: First loaves of bread

Well, my house is air conditioned too in the summer, but I keep it at about 68 in the winter and 75 in the summer. That 7 degrees makes a big difference. You'll see....

I've ruined more loaves than I care to admit- just do a forum search and you'll see how many things I've admitted to screwing up. And I have a lot of experience baking too! And a lot of experience not being careful doing math and reading carefully...

I don't consistently have time to try a new loaf every week, but I'd be happy to do one now and then and post it.

[texassourdough]

Re: First loaves of bread

Here are some photos of today's sourdough batch. I deliberately put the first two loaves in early to be sure they would be underproofed a bit. The results are pretty much what I like for my sourdough. These comments are for those of you who are looking for guidance and examples.

The bread is a straight dough sourdough (i.e. flour, water, salt) made in a double expansion (first last night, let the preferment go overnight, second expansion this morning). The dough is BP 69. It was pretty sticky so I just mixed it by hand until it sort of came together. Then two folds at 20 minutes and two more at 40 minutes (I would have gone 30 and 60 minutes but I had to leave for a while). Bulk ferment for a total of three hours. Plop the dough on the counter and slice into quarters. I gently folded those into boules, spun them on the counter with floured hands to tension the skin. Floured them lightly to prevent sticking and put them in plastic baskets that had been sprayed with Pam and floured lightly. They stuck a bit as a result of the wetness of the dough.

The slash is a "leaf" slash I use (having the last name of Forrest). I deliberately pulled the first two loaves early to try to make sure I could photograph an underproofed loaf for you. The other two went in 45 minutes later. They are approximately 1 1/4 pound loaves and baked at 435 for about 43 minutes. They were about 1 1/2 inches tall after being slashed and are about 3 1/2 inches tall after baking. The crust color is just a hair darker than I prefer. If I had it to do over I would probably bake them at 430 for the same time.

The rear two loaves in the first picture are the two that are underproofed. The front two are just about where I like them. If you look close you will see the rear loaves have a bit more rip and look a bit more "exploded".

I took a closer up photo of one loaf that is about "right".

The crumb is pretty open and random. It was baked to about 208-209 internal temperature. You will note that the cell walls are beginning to get translucent (glassy). That's what I am after.

Hope some of you find this useful!
Jay

[Gromit]

Re: First loaves of bread

Jay,

Thank you for your post. That is incredibly helpful. I've saved those photos and will refer back to them often.

What size baskets are you putting those 1.25 lb balls in to?

I had no idea that a loaf could more than double in height in the oven. If they were 1.5" after slashing, what were they before slashing? My spirits have deflated right along with my dough as I see it slowly sinking after a slash.

Also, what type of flour did you use with that 69 BP? I have noticed a big difference in the feel of dough of the same hydration with AP and bread flour.

Thank you!

[texassourdough]

Re: First loaves of bread

Oh...some things I take for granted. Artisanal boules are for me always bread flour. In this case King Arthur bread flour. The beauty of baking "early" is that, assuming the dough has reasonably risen, it WILL spring for it will have lots of gases stored up in the dough. These loaves were almost pancakes after I slashed them and they rose to 3 to 3 1/2 inches. The line I cut on doesn't show the crumb as well as it should. There were much bigger bubbles in the slices we cut for dinner.

As far as bakers percentages, I can't imagine trying to deal with BP 69 AP. I can do it for ciabatta and focaccia but not for a boule. It wouldn't have the strength, it would just spread to a puddle!

The baskets are the orange baskets that were for sale at Empire. They consider them a 2 # basket so they have some extra room! I just did the calc and the boules were actually almost 1.4 pounds. But still,they would be taller in a narrower basket. I dont' worry about that.

I also deliberately went a bit wetter than normal to show you a more open crumb. And I did minimal handling. When I formed the boules the wet, sticky dough stuck to the counter some in spite of flour. I was a bit concerned I was degassing it to much but...I gently nudged it into a fold and into a boule and tightened it up (just gently rotate it with both hands on the counter and watch the skin tighten - sort of like forming a pizza dough ball in the palm of your hand if you have tried that - okay, take a wad of pizza dough and put your hand over it cupping your fingers and begin moving your hand in circles. The dough will almost jump off the counter and form a dough ball in your hand!) (Yeah it's a bit overstated but... try it, you will like it!)

Bake on!
Jay

[Dutchoven]

Re: First loaves of bread

Thought I would post a few photos of some bread we baked today. We are not doing our Farmer's Market booth tomorrow...rather running the home pool swim meet for the high school team my wife coaches. Made a few loaves of bread for some close friend from out of town that will be there tomorrow. A couple of fancier shapes but all from the simple "pain au levain" formula we use. BP68 and all bread flour. I we were doing just baguette we usually blend bread flour and APF to get the right texture.
All the best!
Dutch

[texassourdough]

Re: First loaves of bread

Nice work, Dutch!
Jay

[ThisOldGarageNJ]

Re: First loaves of bread

!!! wow !!!

[Gromit]

Re: First loaves of bread

I was so inspired by the beautiful pictures posted by Jay & Dutch here recently, that I promptly went out and baked my worst loaves yet Saturday a week ago. A free tip for all you bakers: if you want a nice black speckle all over your bread, then simply mist your oven when you have not burned all the carbon off the dome first. Black snow!

SO, I have left my Yeasties & Beasties in the back of the fridge and have dialed back my ambitions a bit. I've been using the kitchen oven to make bagels, sandwich loaves, and even hot dog buns. The 2nd time around, the bagels turned out pretty nice, but being a Protestant boy from Texas, who has never been to NYC, I am in no position to judge what is a good bagel.

[texassourdough]

Re: First loaves of bread

Hi David!

Big chuckle at the black snow! If your oven hasn't cleared you can't possibly have loaded the oven enough to do bread right! For bread I go 150-200% of clearing time. I.e. clear in an hour, go an extra half hour to hour to load the oven - with real fire, not a pizza fire. Then clean the oven out (but don't mop yet, just get most of the coals and ashes. And let it heat soak a bit - typically an hour or so until the temp gets down to baking range (for most people that seems to be about 550 on the hearth). Then mop with a damp (but NOT WET) rag to get the excess ash and to humidify the oven a bit. Then load, spritz, and bake.

There are advantages to starting with commercial yeast in the WFO until you understand the oven.

I make bagels every once in a while too. The homemade ones make all commercial bagels I have ever had pale by comparison! Wonderful stuff!

Hang in there. The stars will eventually line up and a miracle will happen! )
Jay