Sourdough

[Gromit]

Re: Sourdough

That Eagle Mills flour is a 70% white 30% "ultragrain" blend. The "ultragrain" is not GMO, but is a specially bred variety of wheat that has a special milling process to grind up the fiber and germ much finer than normal. It was developed by ConAgra--the very name sends shivers down my spine.

[cecilB]

Re: Sourdough

So what's the difference between GMO and specially bred?
I'm with you about ConAgra.

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough

Thanks for the info, David!

Cecilia, I meant to comment on 00. While I don't get too excited about bread flour or AP (other than bleaching), 00 is a bit different. If absolutely pressed and being 100% straight, I would state that I feel I can make dough that tastes just as good or better with AP or bread flour. (The key IMO lies far more in the retarding than in the flour.) The texture of 00 is pretty different. Super extensible and silky. It lends itself to light, bubbly crusts that are crisp on the outside and creamy on the inside. My local VPN pizza place uses 00 and I can get all I want easily. (Well there are no VPN certified pizzarias in OK, MO, KA, NB so no help.) With love you can come awfully close with AP if you follow Reinharts Neopolitan dough formula. Will never be the same but...much closer to 00 than to commercial dough. Better to spend a little extra money on good olive oil (Costco's house brand is a steal in the 2 liter IMO) than to sweat the flour difference. WRT pizza dough, there seems to be quite a following for blended AP and bread flour dough - you might want to try that too. Key in any case is a high hydration dough. More like a focaccia or ciabbata dough than a bread dough!

My pizzaria friend makes Pane Pugliese from 00 and I think it is a bit of overkill. I actually prefer the crumb and crust I get from regular AP dough. And I am working with him to make a partially sourdough Pugliese! It's the kind of thing that "everyone has their preferences and biases" AP and 00 are, I think, arguably more different than better or worse than... Still, I use 00 for pizza. I like the texture and crust.

Good Luck!
Jay

[Gromit]

Re: Sourdough

GMO tinkers with the DNA in a laboratory. Specially bred tinkers with the DNA in a field by cross-breeding and selecting for desired traits.

[cecilB]

Re: Sourdough

Aha. But I still am wary (is that the correct word) the the ultragrain!

Jay, thanks for all that info on 00 flour. I have made the pizza using AP (on stones in my regular ovens) and I changed my recipe from the BBA to one I got, supposedly from Naples.
I like the "Naples" one better - much less yeast is used, and people say it's better. Is it the flour? Is it the lesser amount of yeast? Or is it (GASP) - the LESS hydration from BBA?!!! I don't know!

c

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough

The "regular" doughs I like best personally are Reinharts Neopolitan (AP) and Neo-Neopolitan (bread flour) doughs. Like I said, 00 is different. Hard to directly compare but a soft Neopolitan can be pretty close in many ways. The real magic in 00 IMO is in the hand. It is awesome to touch and work with.

The key methinks is in a long retard. I usually go 24 hours. That gives the enzymes in the flour lots of time to break down starches and make sugars and for the yeast to make some interesting byproducts (yeast poop - aka alcohol). That is critical methinks for all flours and separates fair/good dough from great).

I will hazard a guess Cecilia that the lower yeast is a major contributor. I am intrigued you like a dryer dough but an indoor oven is a different animal and it may make sense. Also could be you like a crisper or stronger dough and that would favor dryer and/or bread flour. Interesting!

Thanks!
Jay

[cecilB]

Re: Sourdough

I don't necessarily like a "dryer" dough, but from all that I had "learned" before, the wetter the better, right?
Did you see one of the videos on this forum on pizza dough forming? From a place in Italy, I think? - that was no wet dough!
I like to experiment - to compare - so, after being sold on Reinhart's Neopolitan for so many years, but still not being thrilled with my pizza (although, in the beginning when I discovered his method, I thought I was finished experimenting with pizza doughs)and then trying out another type, I was amazed at the difference. Maybe I lost my love for the Reinhart method after actually being in Italy and having real pizza....even though it was only for 2 weeks. heh heh heh. I don't know.

My pizza dough has a 24 hour...or more...retard, as well.

I also believe that my pizza will really blow our minds (around here, anyway) once the oven is finished! I CAN'T WAIT!!!

Maybe it was the sprinkling of coarse salt and olive oil before putting them into the oven....
Wow. I'm hungry.
I wish I had started pizza dough yesterday!

Cecelia

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough

Somehow I haven't been to Italy yet. High on my list, but fishing is higher. I have been to Provence and the Nice area (areas of which was Italy a hundred years ago). While we had wonderful pizza at a family winery, I don't know how it compares, so I am a bit short on direct comparison to Italy.

There is a difference in mouth feel to the 00 that is elusive to describe. As indicated previously the flavor is not as unique to me. I think wetter doughs better capture the sensation of the 00, but that could just be me.

When you have your WFO you will probably want to shift your dough to something wetter and bubblier. The WFO gives both a different flavor profile and mouth feel to the dough and I have never seen a conventional oven come very close - you just can't get hot enough. You will enjoy the oven when it is done!

One of our favorite appetizers has become effectively flatbread. Just pizza dough with a a little really good olive oil and sea salt sparsely scattered. Nothing else. With great dough it is amazing! And now I am getting hungry!
Jay

[cecilB]

Re: Sourdough

Well, mouth feel is a big thing to me, as well as flavor - All of the breads I have made from BBA have wonderful texture, but (and this could be because I'm used to Desem Bread) they seem to lack something in flavor - I never am thrilled with the flavor - it's not BAD...just lacking...

Anyway, I have always recommended BBA as well as Laurel Robertson's for Desem, and Thom Leonard, also for Desem. But then I started reading, cover to cover, English Bread and Yeast Cookery - quite accidental, mind you - but it has really helped a lot! Maybe not with the Italian bread and pizza, but definitely with any others! (oh, and not with the desem!)

Speaking of Desem...it NEEDS (heh heh heh) me!

Cecelia