82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

I think you have it figured out by laying 1/2 headers to the height you would like. Look at Fabby's build. It was done without a lot of fancy tools/saws so it can be done. Make yourself an IT (indespensible tool) to help you keep the dome shape in the round. Just do a search of IT and you will find all types and it can done easily with scrounged materials but will pay off dividends during your build.

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Chip, thanks for your info again and I shall look at the little niggle you mentioned about the peel catching on the mortar joint and yes I shall reread about this innovative design.
I like it. Can I do it ???? we will see.
Dave , Russell & Texman
thank you for the clarification on tinker tailor soldier sailor, I must admit I was unsure and have read many posts on the matter as to which one may be best BUT NOW I have a third choice and on reflection I think your right Dave a soldier is a design flaw and so I am going outside soon to look at laying them flat ( header of half brick ) It does make sense that they would be more stable and like Chip says you can raise it to your desired height perhaps 2 or 3 high.
Im all for an easy life and the less cutting I do the better, my bricks are a mess little knocks here and there but beggars cant be choosers I suppose but I do admire, nay, envy, the clean cut sides of your builds.
PS any recommended product for the Hand Lotion Chip?

[oasiscdm]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

:Good one russell they say a picture soaks a thousand words. How true.

I just learnt something.

That post needs to be somewhere more central where easily found by newbies

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

This subject about brick names comes up periodically, so here is a picture and names.

[texman]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

i meant flat-still dont understand the sailor/soldier thing apparently. I thought sailer was flat, soldier upright.
sorry to confuse this.

So, it is a header of half brick?

Texman

Bond: a pattern in which brick is laid.
Stretcher: a brick laid horizontally, flat with the long side of the brick exposed on the outer face of a wall.
Header: a brick laid flat with the short end of the brick exposed.
Soldier: a brick laid vertically with the narrow ("stretcher") side exposed.
Sailor: a brick laid vertically with the broad side exposed.
Rowlock or Bull Header[1]: a brick laid on the long, narrow side with the small or "header" side exposed.
Shiner: a brick laid on the long narrow side with the broad side exposed.

[david s]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

i agree with David on the soldiers, use Sailors there. easier too build that way as well.
Texman

No, sailors is wrong too because they also stand up and even worse they are side by side which makes the walls thinner and even weaker. You are better to lay them flat.

[texman]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

i agree with David on the soldiers, use Sailors there. easier too build that way as well.
Texman

[david s]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

I think soldiers on the first row is a design deficiency and encourages cracking at the base of the dome.

[mrchipster]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Hi Chip,
Thanks for your guidance and for pointing me to Octoforno.
Present company considered it must be the most detailed, informative and cleanest project I've come across.
I notice that you too have adopted the same method, would you still do this again if you had the opportunity.
I understand what you say about the arch being able to support the oven I can see by photos how the weight is transferred to the floor and not on the arch.
I also notice your first row was not a soldier sailor, tinker tailor, but laid flat any particular reason ?
Although I don't understand everything what was said in both yours and Octoforno post on the first read of them but I am going to try that method too.
You mentioned in one of your (also very informative and detailed) posts that you cut the brick in half lengthwise although the photos look to me like they are cut in half width ways.
Your build looks good and would be more than happy if my endevours turned out nearly as good.
I don't have access to such machines as the HF only the 125mm angle grinder & 220mm which only just goes through the width of a brick. So could I still manage to adopt your idea or would it be too difficult with the tools I have?
I like the list of tools you posted like the hand lotion, hand lotion indeed !

I would not build my inner arch any othe way. At this time I think is the state of the art for inner arch design.

Cutting the bricks lengthwise to add a keystone shape to every brick on the arch was not necessary but it did aid in keeping my joint spacing narrow and I am glad I did it. It may be difficult for you - I had a 14 inch comercial wet saw that made the taske easier.

As far as soldier you can get the exact same dimensions of a soldier by doing multiple ( probably 3 )courses of half bricks laid flat. Because the bricks have offset seams and are mortared horizontally as well as vertically the bond is stronger than using soldier. soldiers really need buttressing or a strap of some type to keep them from pushing out. Just build vertically until you reach the height you want for a vertical sidewall. Theonething I would have done differently is to start my dome with splits so that the metal peel did not meet the mortar joint at the floor level, the split would raise the second course of brick so that the floor would center on the second course of brick, or course 1.5 because the first is obviously a half height for this example.

Read and re-read john's OctoForno post and it will suddenly hit you as to what is going on with the arch, it will become clear.

I know I caught grief from some of the brickies out there for the hand lotion but - it worked

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Thanks again Dave.

[david s]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Use 4:1:1:1 sand, lime, Portland cement, powdered clay.

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Hi Dave, thanks for the warning, I went to the shop today and tried to enquire about the ratio of sand to lime in the premixed bags but nobody knew and its not marked on the bag .
I have used this before on any pointing or repairing the ridge tiles and has been good to work with. I have purchased cement today and fire cement so will mix a little of the concoction plus the sand lime combination and stick a couple of bricks together to see what happens.
as for our antient wall, the house is possibly 150 years old we still have wattle and daub in the walls. The garden wall which you mention will be as old but some parts have been rebuilt/repaired, not very well either in my opinion.
What do you think to the sound of this lime sand mix Dave if its usable maybe my leaner ratio would be 4 sand/lime 1fire cement 1 or 1/2 Portland
Paul

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Hi Chip,
Thanks for your guidance and for pointing me to Octoforno.
Present company considered it must be the most detailed, informative and cleanest project I've come across.
I notice that you too have adopted the same method, would you still do this again if you had the opportunity.
I understand what you say about the arch being able to support the oven I can see by photos how the weight is transferred to the floor and not on the arch.
I also notice your first row was not a soldier sailor, tinker tailor, but laid flat any particular reason ?
Although I don't understand everything what was said in both yours and Octoforno post on the first read of them but I am going to try that method too.
You mentioned in one of your (also very informative and detailed) posts that you cut the brick in half lengthwise although the photos look to me like they are cut in half width ways.
Your build looks good and would be more than happy if my endevours turned out nearly as good.
I don't have access to such machines as the HF only the 125mm angle grinder & 220mm which only just goes through the width of a brick. So could I still manage to adopt your idea or would it be too difficult with the tools I have?
I like the list of tools you posted like the hand lotion, hand lotion indeed !

[david s]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Do not mix.the fire cement with lime. It will accelerate the hardening and give you extremely short working time. Even without the lime it goes off much faster than home brew. The home brew is quite adequate for the temps we fire to and a better option IMO.
Chip, thanks for the compliment.
I echo the the reaction re the stone wall. It looks amazing. I thought it must be an ancient existing one , beautiful work.
Dave

[mrchipster]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Many Thanks David for the reassurance,

With regard to question 2, I was trying to understand if the 3 stacked bricks you can see on the picture have been cut (albeit roughly ) to accommodate the oven wall and to start the arch. Do these bricks keep the same shape as they go over to form the arch or do they need to be cut more straighter after a certain height.
I apologise if I'm not clear and misunderstood your helpful advice.

Using this type of inner arch brick cut is what I did. The brick will not keep the exact shape because as the dome build rises the dome radius gets smaller and the inner arch still needs to be vertical at the door seal (reveal). Thus the length of the bricks used on the inner arch will become longer in order to reach back into the oven to meet the smaller dome radius as the height increases. See the thread called Octoforno http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/octoforno-7122.html for for details also look at one by sharkey "http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f21/building-between-rock-hard-place-14459.html

ANOTHER QUESTION PLEASE ! I have seen posts where a support needs to be built for the entry arches.
J
Is this normal? will the arch and tunnel entry way NOT stand on its own?
I see many pictures where supports have not been built, so Im a little worried and confused.

A nice hemispherical arch will stand on it's own. Supports are used when builders use vertical sides and slightly radius end aches or flat lintels fo the tops of their inner arches. Because the vertical sides are not supported like when as part of a wall as the example a window in a brick wall the vertical wall of the arch would need a buttress to support it.

With regard to such I see mention of the home brew.
I can buy here bags of ready mixed sand and lime, it is kept damp in plastic bags and is usually used for pointing work and such like.

Home brew is 3 sand, 1 fireclay, 1 hydrated lime, 1 Portland cement.
By volume

Question 2 Can I use the fire cement on its own only adding water.
Question 3 If I use the home brew I would have to use the fire cement and the ready mixed Lime and mortar. Does this still constitute the home brew?

One of the brickies will need to chime in on this one I am not sure.

Question 4 I've read that Im not supposed to allow the insulation board to become wet, but worry that it must come into contact with the cement at some point thereby making it damp, am I unduly worrying on this point.?

Damp concrete is not the issue the board will dry out well from that contact during your curing fires. Just try to keep it from getting rained on.

This is a big, BIG project for me to undertake and money is an issue and so I ask so many silly questions as to alleviate my worries and to pick the brains of you who are much more qualified than I.

Thank you Mr Chipster for your comment about the wall, It is dry stacked and hope that at any point it doesn't collapse on my oven We are prone to earth tremors in this part of the world being only about 6 hours from Istanbul where the experts reckon the next Big earth quake will be, if it happens in my time and my wall and house falls down I want my oven intact just to show the locals that an Englishman Can build a sturdy construction.
Once again thank you

I would not guarantee my oven would outlive my house in an earthquake so good luck with that.