82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

[yorkshireknight]

Many Thanks to those on this forum who give those of us lesser mortals like myself with no building knowhow a guiding hand.

I have so far picked many a brain just to get to the stage I am at now and no doubt will need more guidance as I travel the daunting path to Pizzadom.

Anyway like those who have led the way before I will upload pictures of my efforts along the way.

Here are a few showing the slab and hearth.
It is 140cmx140cm with a bit chopped off the front where the oven will face.

Thanks to Nissan Neill who drew a few sketches to show how my layout would look, unfortunately I made a bit of error on the wood storage opening, but for me it didn't matter so much as I have approx. 18cu m of chopped wood in my barn next to the oven area.

However for those who may read this and not yet at this stage, think very carefully about your stand/slab size it may limit you later on.

I wasn't sure of the depth of the stoned area in my barn hence a slab of 10cm.
I also had time and a truck load of gravel so I filled in every core for the support.

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Brick Hearth Layout.

Taking advice, I put hand in wallet and bought new bricks for the floor they are 25cm x 12.5 x 6.5cm

They were 3.90 leva which equates to approx. ?1.73p in UK sterling

I have adopted the herring bone pattern like many others and found it was very simple more than I anticipated. Because it is a corner build I lay my bricks from the side /horizontal/vertical therefor the HB was achieved looking from the front.

Here are a few picks to where I am at the moment.

My Bulgarian language skills leaves a lot to be desired and insulation and other materials are difficult to source or not available, particulary quality. IMO.

Not being able to be understood properly as to my needs from willing locals I have ordered my insulation from the Uk. 12m of insulation blanket and 2 pieces of 1000mm x 1200mm x50mm ceramic fibre board.

I am still awaiting the delivery of such maybe the end of June so I am on the hunt for a good stone brick cutter.

I have see on the internet the HF saw and looks great but I cannot justify the cost of shipping one over here.
Their are many variations of tile cutters but none I have seen will go through the bricks in one pass, I did see one for 1800leva (approx. ?800) and they did hire them for ?20 per day but as I will need it for a long period I shall opt for the large angle grinder with diamond blades which will be my cheapest and best option for making cleaner cuts.

I have managed to purchase used firebricks for the dome, 60 stotinkis each (26p)
I have given them a good clean up and when I cut them in half I shall use the cut face towards the interior.

WORRY QUESTION As expected the edges are very chipped, do you think its a good idea to go with used FB.? Do they have a life expectancy? Will they still perform as good?

One of the photos from the side view shows the pencil line where I shall cut the front bricks to straighten the front edge landing.
Is it feasible to cut little bits off this size.

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

My Floor Bricks are now cut to some sort of roundish shape using my new angle grinder.
AS you can see by the pictures the cutting leaves a lot to be desired, this was my second attempt too.

Question 1 Do I fill the gap between the floor and first course with cement OR do I leave it to fill with ash?

On the other picture shows the cut brick which will form the arch entry

Question 2 Do I keep this shape all the way up and round to where the arch will meet OR is there a point where I change the shape, for example,to a half brick?

You can also see on one of the pickies that my reveal will be nearly 1 1/2 inches, this made it easier to accommodate a full width brick for the front arch.

The floor bricks were, in my opinion expensive. I did purchase second hand bricks for the dome etc but I have found that there are various widths, depths and lengths.

Question 3. If my bricks are varying heights on the sailor/soldier course would I be able to overcome this unevenness on the second course, possibly by compensating with more cement underneath.

If anyone sees any potential problem that may be lurking ahead with my build so far then I would appreciate any comments. Good or bad !

I, like you and all others, have trawled these boards and picture galleries, and everyone seems to have their own slight variation possibly to overcome little problems that have come up, hopefully my little niggles can be sorted too.
Many Thanks in advance for all your replies.

[david s]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

My Floor Bricks are now cut to some sort of roundish shape using my new angle grinder.
AS you can see by the pictures the cutting leaves a lot to be desired, this was my second attempt too.

Question 1 Do I fill the gap between the floor and first course with cement OR do I leave it to fill with ash?

On the other picture shows the cut brick which will form the arch entry

Question 2 Do I keep this shape all the way up and round to where the arch will meet OR is there a point where I change the shape, for example,to a half brick?

You can also see on one of the pickies that my reveal will be nearly 1 1/2 inches, this made it easier to accommodate a full width brick for the front arch.

The floor bricks were, in my opinion expensive. I did purchase second hand bricks for the dome etc but I have found that there are various widths, depths and lengths.

Question 3. If my bricks are varying heights on the sailor/soldier course would I be able to overcome this unevenness on the second course, possibly by compensating with more cement underneath.

If anyone sees any potential problem that may be lurking ahead with my build so far then I would appreciate any comments. Good or bad !

I, like you and all others, have trawled these boards and picture galleries, and everyone seems to have their own slight variation possibly to overcome little problems that have come up, hopefully my little niggles can be sorted too.
Many Thanks in advance for all your replies.

1. Leave a small gap. One thickness of corrugated cardboard should be sufficient. Pull it out or let it burn away.
2.normally you keep the same curve using an IT. You will need to trim the bricks more the higher up you go because the radius gets smaller the closer you get to the top.
3. Slight variation in brick height will be accommodated by the mortar joints. If it's lots you will have to trim the bricks. If you don't have a saw a 5" angle grinder with a diamond blade works pretty well.A 4" one doesn't give you enough depth of cut.

[mrchipster]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

That stone wall in the background is amazing. Btw the answers you got from David S are spot on as his answers always are...

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Many Thanks David for the reassurance,

With regard to question 2, I was trying to understand if the 3 stacked bricks you can see on the picture have been cut (albeit roughly ) to accommodate the oven wall and to start the arch. Do these bricks keep the same shape as they go over to form the arch or do they need to be cut more straighter after a certain height.
I apologise if I'm not clear and misunderstood your helpful advice.

ANOTHER QUESTION PLEASE ! I have seen posts where a support needs to be built for the entry arches.

Is this normal? will the arch and tunnel entry way NOT stand on its own?
I see many pictures where supports have not been built, so Im a little worried and confused.
My back aches today with all the bending and cutting yesterday, so Im taking a break but will need to go and buy my fire cement.
With regard to such I see mention of the home brew.
I can buy here bags of ready mixed sand and lime, it is kept damp in plastic bags and is usually used for pointing work and such like.

Question 2 Can I use the fire cement on its own only adding water.
Question 3 If I use the home brew I would have to use the fire cement and the ready mixed Lime and mortar. Does this still constitute the home brew?
Question 4 I've read that Im not supposed to allow the insulation board to become wet, but worry that it must come into contact with the cement at some point thereby making it damp, am I unduly worrying on this point.?

This is a big, BIG project for me to undertake and money is an issue and so I ask so many silly questions as to alleviate my worries and to pick the brains of you who are much more qualified than I.

Thank you Mr Chipster for your comment about the wall, It is dry stacked and hope that at any point it doesn't collapse on my oven We are prone to earth tremors in this part of the world being only about 6 hours from Istanbul where the experts reckon the next Big earth quake will be, if it happens in my time and my wall and house falls down I want my oven intact just to show the locals that an Englishman Can build a sturdy construction.
Once again thank you

[mrchipster]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Many Thanks David for the reassurance,

With regard to question 2, I was trying to understand if the 3 stacked bricks you can see on the picture have been cut (albeit roughly ) to accommodate the oven wall and to start the arch. Do these bricks keep the same shape as they go over to form the arch or do they need to be cut more straighter after a certain height.
I apologise if I'm not clear and misunderstood your helpful advice.

Using this type of inner arch brick cut is what I did. The brick will not keep the exact shape because as the dome build rises the dome radius gets smaller and the inner arch still needs to be vertical at the door seal (reveal). Thus the length of the bricks used on the inner arch will become longer in order to reach back into the oven to meet the smaller dome radius as the height increases. See the thread called Octoforno http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/octoforno-7122.html for for details also look at one by sharkey "http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f21/building-between-rock-hard-place-14459.html

ANOTHER QUESTION PLEASE ! I have seen posts where a support needs to be built for the entry arches.
J
Is this normal? will the arch and tunnel entry way NOT stand on its own?
I see many pictures where supports have not been built, so Im a little worried and confused.

A nice hemispherical arch will stand on it's own. Supports are used when builders use vertical sides and slightly radius end aches or flat lintels fo the tops of their inner arches. Because the vertical sides are not supported like when as part of a wall as the example a window in a brick wall the vertical wall of the arch would need a buttress to support it.

With regard to such I see mention of the home brew.
I can buy here bags of ready mixed sand and lime, it is kept damp in plastic bags and is usually used for pointing work and such like.

Home brew is 3 sand, 1 fireclay, 1 hydrated lime, 1 Portland cement.
By volume

Question 2 Can I use the fire cement on its own only adding water.
Question 3 If I use the home brew I would have to use the fire cement and the ready mixed Lime and mortar. Does this still constitute the home brew?

One of the brickies will need to chime in on this one I am not sure.

Question 4 I've read that Im not supposed to allow the insulation board to become wet, but worry that it must come into contact with the cement at some point thereby making it damp, am I unduly worrying on this point.?

Damp concrete is not the issue the board will dry out well from that contact during your curing fires. Just try to keep it from getting rained on.

This is a big, BIG project for me to undertake and money is an issue and so I ask so many silly questions as to alleviate my worries and to pick the brains of you who are much more qualified than I.

Thank you Mr Chipster for your comment about the wall, It is dry stacked and hope that at any point it doesn't collapse on my oven We are prone to earth tremors in this part of the world being only about 6 hours from Istanbul where the experts reckon the next Big earth quake will be, if it happens in my time and my wall and house falls down I want my oven intact just to show the locals that an Englishman Can build a sturdy construction.
Once again thank you

I would not guarantee my oven would outlive my house in an earthquake so good luck with that.

[david s]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Do not mix.the fire cement with lime. It will accelerate the hardening and give you extremely short working time. Even without the lime it goes off much faster than home brew. The home brew is quite adequate for the temps we fire to and a better option IMO.
Chip, thanks for the compliment.
I echo the the reaction re the stone wall. It looks amazing. I thought it must be an ancient existing one , beautiful work.
Dave

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Hi Chip,
Thanks for your guidance and for pointing me to Octoforno.
Present company considered it must be the most detailed, informative and cleanest project I've come across.
I notice that you too have adopted the same method, would you still do this again if you had the opportunity.
I understand what you say about the arch being able to support the oven I can see by photos how the weight is transferred to the floor and not on the arch.
I also notice your first row was not a soldier sailor, tinker tailor, but laid flat any particular reason ?
Although I don't understand everything what was said in both yours and Octoforno post on the first read of them but I am going to try that method too.
You mentioned in one of your (also very informative and detailed) posts that you cut the brick in half lengthwise although the photos look to me like they are cut in half width ways.
Your build looks good and would be more than happy if my endevours turned out nearly as good.
I don't have access to such machines as the HF only the 125mm angle grinder & 220mm which only just goes through the width of a brick. So could I still manage to adopt your idea or would it be too difficult with the tools I have?
I like the list of tools you posted like the hand lotion, hand lotion indeed !

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Hi Dave, thanks for the warning, I went to the shop today and tried to enquire about the ratio of sand to lime in the premixed bags but nobody knew and its not marked on the bag .
I have used this before on any pointing or repairing the ridge tiles and has been good to work with. I have purchased cement today and fire cement so will mix a little of the concoction plus the sand lime combination and stick a couple of bricks together to see what happens.
as for our antient wall, the house is possibly 150 years old we still have wattle and daub in the walls. The garden wall which you mention will be as old but some parts have been rebuilt/repaired, not very well either in my opinion.
What do you think to the sound of this lime sand mix Dave if its usable maybe my leaner ratio would be 4 sand/lime 1fire cement 1 or 1/2 Portland
Paul

[david s]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Use 4:1:1:1 sand, lime, Portland cement, powdered clay.

[yorkshireknight]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Thanks again Dave.

[mrchipster]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

Hi Chip,
Thanks for your guidance and for pointing me to Octoforno.
Present company considered it must be the most detailed, informative and cleanest project I've come across.
I notice that you too have adopted the same method, would you still do this again if you had the opportunity.
I understand what you say about the arch being able to support the oven I can see by photos how the weight is transferred to the floor and not on the arch.
I also notice your first row was not a soldier sailor, tinker tailor, but laid flat any particular reason ?
Although I don't understand everything what was said in both yours and Octoforno post on the first read of them but I am going to try that method too.
You mentioned in one of your (also very informative and detailed) posts that you cut the brick in half lengthwise although the photos look to me like they are cut in half width ways.
Your build looks good and would be more than happy if my endevours turned out nearly as good.
I don't have access to such machines as the HF only the 125mm angle grinder & 220mm which only just goes through the width of a brick. So could I still manage to adopt your idea or would it be too difficult with the tools I have?
I like the list of tools you posted like the hand lotion, hand lotion indeed !

I would not build my inner arch any othe way. At this time I think is the state of the art for inner arch design.

Cutting the bricks lengthwise to add a keystone shape to every brick on the arch was not necessary but it did aid in keeping my joint spacing narrow and I am glad I did it. It may be difficult for you - I had a 14 inch comercial wet saw that made the taske easier.

As far as soldier you can get the exact same dimensions of a soldier by doing multiple ( probably 3 )courses of half bricks laid flat. Because the bricks have offset seams and are mortared horizontally as well as vertically the bond is stronger than using soldier. soldiers really need buttressing or a strap of some type to keep them from pushing out. Just build vertically until you reach the height you want for a vertical sidewall. Theonething I would have done differently is to start my dome with splits so that the metal peel did not meet the mortar joint at the floor level, the split would raise the second course of brick so that the floor would center on the second course of brick, or course 1.5 because the first is obviously a half height for this example.

Read and re-read john's OctoForno post and it will suddenly hit you as to what is going on with the arch, it will become clear.

I know I caught grief from some of the brickies out there for the hand lotion but - it worked

[david s]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

I think soldiers on the first row is a design deficiency and encourages cracking at the base of the dome.

[texman]

Re: 82cm Corner Underway in Bulgaria

i agree with David on the soldiers, use Sailors there. easier too build that way as well.
Texman