Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

[Cheesehead]

OK, I'm in the planning stage for building my dome.

Firebricks are typically 9 x 4.5 x 2.5. The practice seems to be to cut them in half and stack them so that the dome is 4.5" thick.

I'm thinking of putting the bricks in "sideways" so that the dome is 2.5" thick instead. I'm planning on cutting the bricks trapezoidally (is that a word?) so that they fit together with a minimum of mortar (and hopefully a little more strength).

Why 2.5 instead of 4.5? Well,
1) I did some heat transfer calcs and discovered that there's no way the whole brick is getting to the target 850 F. They're actually pretty well insulating if you look up the thermal conductivity.
2) I've got limited space and a significant other who has a dread of large edifices. Especially those put together by her husband. So any space savings is important, if for no other reason than I can tell her that I'm doing my best to keep the size down.
3) 2.5" seems to be OK on the floor.
4) From what I can see, the cast refractory ovens aren't 4.5" thick.
5) $$$ - fewer firebricks.
6) I have a crazy compulsion to do things differently.

Some disadvantages that I can see:
1) Lower thermal mass. So it might cool down a little faster. Counter - the heat transfer calcs I did (very rough!) tell me that I should still have a whole lot of heat.
2) Less structural integrity. Counter - I'm hoping that keeping the bricks cut to fit with small mortar joints will help here. Also, the external layer of perlcrete ought to add a little strength - not much, but enough to hold things in place assuming I do a good job with the mortar joints.
3) I have a crazy compulsion to do things differently that gets me in trouble sometimes.

Thoughts anyone? Thanks. Wonderful site BTW.

[Nic The Landscaper]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

If you have skill with laying up brick this is completely feasible in my mind also. See dmun's geodesic dome builds for some helpful thoughts on laying up brick in complicated manners.

I cant remember if dmun added much mass to the outside of his dome or not, but one recommendation I have for you is that you parge the outside of your dome with a refractory mortar to add strength and adhesion between bricks. Pearlcrete is not equivalent for this function and has little to no bonding strength.

Also a thought, why dont you cut the bricks into quarters rather than try and calculate and replicate complex angled cuts? The smaller brick segments should keep your mortar joints tighter and theoretically stronger.

[Cheesehead]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

I've seen dmun's thread. Pretty impressive.

As for calculating angle cuts... I'm a geek (well, a scientist, same thing ) It's part of the fun, I've already got the spreadsheet set up.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

I don't think it will be a problem. As for the trapezoids, all that really matters is the joint at the face. Optimize for that.

[KraemerBAC]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

Where in Wisconsin and get us some pictures when you get started

Peter

[Cheesehead]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

I'm in River Falls, really close to Minneapolis/St. Paul. I'd noticed that you were in Beloit. You'll have to tell me how the Packers are doing this year, 'cuz all the newspapers & TV talk about here is the Second Coming of # 4.

It will be awhile before I get started, this is part of a big patio redo. We had an old stone patio, about 200 square feet, but there wasn't a flagstone that had mortar still attached to it. There was also an old BBQ and outdoor oven, which gave me the inspiration for searching out how to build a new one, and led me here.

We're going to expand the patio to about 350 square feet with about 50 feet of retaining wall AND the oven base. The oven is going to be in the corner, recessed into the slope of the hill.

I'm hoping to get together with the concrete contractor in the next couple of days, we're going dyed & stamped surface. I need to figure out all these little dome details (like the size) now because we need to decide how to lay out the slab - he's doing 12" deep with rebar under the retaining and oven walls for support. The wall & oven base is going to be done by my brother-in-law and me this fall once the slab is done, dry-stacking CMU with the cores poured then veneered with stone pulled up from the old patio and BBQ.

Yesterday, I installed about 3/4 ton of railroad ties as a 2' tall by 30' long retaining wall on the downhill side of the patio. I'm hoping to get the slab poured by mid-September and have the walls done (including the oven base, probably not the hearth) before the snow flies.

The oven will be next year's project, with an absolutely uncompromising finish date of June, 2012 - my daughter's graduation. Not that I need to have the oven for that, but the SO has declared that the backyard needs to be neat and trim, with nice grass and without piles of dirt, stacked rock or CMU.

[Cheesehead]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

OK, let's try an attachment with a photo. This is the site where it's all gonna happen. The patio's going back about 15 feet past the current hole, following along the line of the gash on the left to about 5 feet to the right of the railroad tie retaining wall by the garage. The back corner (right) has lilacs planted and we're going to plant hedge roses between the garage and the patio.

The oven will be in the back of the flower pot, seen in the far left corner of the pit.

Edit - Yay it worked! My compliments to Forno Bravo and their software. This was the most painless photo post I've ever had in a forum.

[dmun]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

2) Less structural integrity. Counter - I'm hoping that keeping the bricks cut to fit with small mortar joints will help here.

This is absolutely correct. A thinner dome is a weaker dome, and mine is full of cracks despite using heatstop mortar, and having closely fitted joints.

If for space reasons you must have a thin dome, you should spring for a modular oven. I don't find any real advantage in heating time in my oven.

If I were doing it again, I'd use the 4.5 inch thickness, and the homebrew mortar, which seems much less prone to cracking.

[luca]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

I have a similar question but this is about the base. I'm in VT and can get granite dirt cheap so I'm planning to use a 2.5 thick inch thick granite slab for my base. I will then put a 2 inch layer of Vermiculite/concrete before I start laying the firebricks. The question is, is this enough thermal mass for the base? (I've noticed that nearly all threads discuss a 4-6" poured concrete slab for the base, but then they go on to insulate with Vermicrete before laying the fire bricks, so what is the point of such a massive slab?!) Any suggestions/comments would be greatly appreciated!

[Tscarborough]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

The 4" concrete slab is not a heating mass, it is simply there for support. 4" is the minimum thickness for normal reinforced concrete. You can go much thinner with engineered forms of concrete, but for poured in place 3500 PSI concrete, 4" is what it needs to be. You will be fine with your granite support slab, provided it can handle the loads (which it most likely can), but you probably need more insulation under your firebricks, in the 4" range for vermicrete or perlcrete.

[Neil2]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

"I installed about 3/4 ton of railroad ties as a 2' tall by 30' long retaining wal"

I'm not sure of the details, but I would suggest that your oven footings and walls be completely independent of the retaining wall. (Had planned to sit the oven foundation on top of the fill supported by the retaining wall ?)

[luca]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

Thanks! That's exactly the info I needed! As for the 4 inch vs. 2 inch vermiculite layer issue, is there some prior experience with this, or are you saying to play it safe with more rather than less? My curiosity is because one of the Newbies in this strand above pointed out that the firebricks don't get fully hot on the opposite side of the fire, so why so much insulation? (As you can see, I like to understand what I'm doing rather than just "do the usual!")

[dmun]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

2 inch layer of Vermiculite/concrete

I agree with Tscarborough: two inches is too little by half. If your design limits you to that thin an insulation layer, you need to use a refractory insulation board, either mineral fiber, or cal-sil.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

Because perlcrete costs about 4 bucks a cubic foot one time and good wood costs a buck a cubic foot every time you use the oven.

[Cheesehead]

Re: Newbie dome question - 2.5" thick instead of 4.5?

"I installed about 3/4 ton of railroad ties as a 2' tall by 30' long retaining wal"

I'm not sure of the details, but I would suggest that your oven footings and walls be completely independent of the retaining wall. (Had planned to sit the oven foundation on top of the fill supported by the retaining wall ?)

My yard is on a hill.

There will be a couple of retaining walls. The one I installed is on the downhill side near my garage. It's completely separate from the patio area, there will be about 6 feet of garden bounded by the downhill side of the patio and the uphill side of the railroad tie wall. It is structurally isolated from the patio/oven/etc. It was necessary because soil, debris & such was backing up against the garage and rotting the exterior. It's to the right in my photo on post #7.

The uphill wall is planned to include the oven footing, and will run along the lefthand side of the pit seen in the photo on post #7. The wall and oven footing will be on the poured patio slab, with an extra 12" w/rebar below the CMU. The idea is that the oven is in the corner, into the side of the hill (the soil should be about 18" - 24" up on the backside of the oven).

So the base of the oven will not be on top of the fill above the wall, but on the same slab that the wall rests on.

Hope that helps. And if it doesn't make sense, let me know - I'll hopefully only build one patio with a WFO in my life. I want to do it right.


Edit - I've added a little sketch to the photo which hopefully makes some sense.