WHich Oven ?

[deejayoh]

Re: WHich Oven ?

Tone it down guys we are here on this post trying to help out Nick. If you want to debate the finer point of brick vs adobe start a new thread or pm each other.

Well, he hasn't visited the site for about a month... so I say it's and adobe vs. brick free for all

JK

On a more serious note - it's not advice that is going to find much support on this forum. Adobe has it's advocates I am sure, but not so many here where there is a pretty strong focus on optimizing oven performance.

[Laurentius]

Re: WHich Oven ?

Tone it down guys we are here on this post trying to help out Nick. If you want to debate the finer point of brick vs adobe start a new thread or pm each other.

I hope Nick and other newbies will be helped by knowing mis-information, when exposed to it. You shouldn't ignore it, just because it pops up in the wrong place, should you??

[Laurentius]

Re: WHich Oven ?

Look at all the energy and labor it takes to make Firebricks, compared to free Adobe soil! For insulation Wool will out perform any of your Hi tech insulation.

Nobody is saying that you are wrong in all things! You can not make a Blanket statement, and be correct about everything.

[texman]

Re: WHich Oven ?

here goes...

WFO

Chip is referring to the temperature of saturated firebrick. That in contact with wool would be a disaster.

As far as adobe/soil ovens-they have been around since the beginning of time i suppose. proven over and over and over. As you look around the forum, you will notice most of the discussion is around ovens using modern materials. While you may have built a 1000 ovens, i am guessing that have not built a brick oven using modern materials nor would you ever. Am i correct? If we didn't live in the post industrial revolution and the modern societal decay and only had access to adobe; i am sure that is what this forum would discuss. But that would require us to use energy to power our computers. So, not sure. Also, the appearance of the adobe oven is not one that i prefer.

One reason that i prefer the brick oven, besides appearance, is space. We dont have huge areas for adobe ovens. And, while you may be very comfortable with working with soil, we prefer relying on materials that are more predictable to us. We dont intend to do this again and expect these ovens to last a lifetime.

Oh and by the way-what was the thread topic? Oh yea-Nick and what oven?

If you want to contribute a plan and materials for him, by all means do so. That is what he asked for.

Texman

[mrchipster]

Re: WHich Oven ?

If your outside wall gets to 600c you have one lame oven! MRCHPSTER, nice try, looks like the unexpected just got burned

In addition the US national uniform fire code contains the following entry

"Masonry chimneys completely outside the building wall must have a 1 inch clearance to combustibles (from wall sheathing, from framing passing thru soffit, etc.). Masonry chimneys inside must have a 2 inch clearance to combustibles."

Since wool is combustable how do you keep it 1 - 2 inches away from the adobe? Our fire department considers the entire firebox the same as the chimney and would not allow me to build with wool, or styrofoam which has an insulating value over twice that of wool but is also combustable.

Please do not try to get the users on this site to do something illegal and dangerous.

[Laurentius]

Re: WHich Oven ?

Laurentius ? What does your title Master Builder mean? How many ovens have you made?

Hi WFO,

The title Master Builder, means less than s--t, to me! With some cow or chicken manure, I can grow a nice patch of vegetables to add some fiber to my diet. What matters to me is to be educated enough, formally and natively to be able to think in or out of the box. To be able to look at the pros and cons before coming to a conclusion. To be able to realize that what I believe to be true is often times, not. When I make a mistake, not to allow my pride to stand in the way of saying, I'm sorry, I made a mistake.

As for ovens, I've only built one, thanks to the gods, it wasn't the invention of dynamite!

[david s]

Re: WHich Oven ?

Does anyone have any published evidence to show either the thermal conductivity or insulating value difference between unfired clay and brick?
Since bricks are made of clay, I would expect that the difference would be very minor. Apart from the 10% or so of shrinkage which increases the density of brick and the addition of straw to the mud which reduces the density of adobe, I can't think of another reason why they would differ.
The main disadvantage of adobe over brick is that it is not as durable and tends to abrade more easily.

[Laurentius]

Re: WHich Oven ?

Does anyone have any published evidence to show either the thermal conductivity or insulating value difference between unfired clay and brick?
Since bricks are made of clay, I would expect that the difference would be very minor. Apart from the 10% or so of shrinkage which increases the density of brick and the addition of straw to the mud which reduces the density of adobe, I can't think of another reason why they would differ.
The main disadvantage of adobe over brick is that it is not as durable and tends to abrade more easily.

David,

If you test this, made clay and adobe bricks of the same dimensions, add 10% for shrinkage and you have a good starting point. Keep us posted, curious minds want to know.

[david s]

Re: WHich Oven ?

Clay and adobe will not hold heat like a firebrick oven. Not even close to the same performance. Maybe it is the same while there is a fire going, but they will cool much more quickly.

I'd be interested to see data that shows this. My guess is that there would be little difference, provided both were insulated the same.

[Tscarborough]

Re: WHich Oven ?

There is a difference, and it is not small. Woodfiredoven, the ovens you build use a different thermal model than the ones built by the Pompeians. The idea behind a modern WFO oven is a thermal mass isolated and insulated. The amount of mass is determined by the desired use, the insulation usually ends up being all you can afford or have room for.

The adobe oven assumes that the mass of the oven will itself hold so much heat that it is self-insulating. The is not how thermodynamics works, but a usable oven can be built with adobe or firebrick using this as the design criteria.

It is not comparable to an oven design as I noted above by the modern Pompeii oven. I have nothing against an adobe oven, but understand that by simply insulating the adobe (and glass bottle or sand are not insulators), you can increase the performance of the oven, not incrementally, but exponentially.


You seem to be an Earth friendly sort, so why not make the oven as efficient as possible to both save wood, and provide for extended cook times? Yesterday, 24 hours after dooring the oven off after pizza it was at 460 degrees, today, more than 48 hours later it is just under 300 degrees even though I left the door open a crack (I have some jerky to dry, so I want 200 degrees).

[mrchipster]

Re: WHich Oven ?

I hope Nick and other newbies will be helped by knowing mis-information, when exposed to it. You shouldn't ignore it, just because it pops up in the wrong place, should you??

Sorry Laurentius, I thought you were being a little to hard on WFO until he started saying stuff that is downright illegal and dangerous per most US building and fire codes and that got under my skin.

[Laurentius]

Re: WHich Oven ?

Sorry Laurentius, I thought you were being a little to hard on WFO until he started saying stuff that is downright illegal and dangerous per most US building and fire codes and that got under my skin.

Saying things that are stupid, bother me more. As Forest Grump put it, "Stupid is as stupid does"! We as American has always had a soft spot in our hearts for social outlaws, we tend to glorify and make heros out of them if they have any redeeming value.

[brickie in oz]

Re: WHich Oven ?

I have not recorded 600c on the outside of my dome but I have recorded 550c

Ive had mine to 800c, just because I could.....

[brickie in oz]

Re: WHich Oven ?

there is a pretty strong focus on optimizing oven performance.

Does that make us all Tim the Tool Men.......

[oasiscdm]

Re: WHich Oven ?

here goes...

WFO

Chip is referring to the temperature of saturated firebrick. That in contact with wool would be a disaster.

As far as adobe/soil ovens-they have been around since the beginning of time i suppose. proven over and over and over. As you look around the forum, you will notice most of the discussion is around ovens using modern materials. While you may have built a 1000 ovens, i am guessing that have not built a brick oven using modern materials nor would you ever. Am i correct? If we didn't live in the post industrial revolution and the modern societal decay and only had access to adobe; i am sure that is what this forum would discuss. But that would require us to use energy to power our computers. So, not sure. Also, the appearance of the adobe oven is not one that i prefer.

One reason that i prefer the brick oven, besides appearance, is space. We dont have huge areas for adobe ovens. And, while you may be very comfortable with working with soil, we prefer relying on materials that are more predictable to us. We dont intend to do this again and expect these ovens to last a lifetime.

Oh and by the way-what was the thread topic? Oh yea-Nick and what oven?

If you want to contribute a plan and materials for him, by all means do so. That is what he asked for.

Texman

I like this Texman [wouldn't let me do a LIKE.... ] . Well articulated........ Wow and they have said that us Aussies can wellllll ......get a little agro... Interesting thread. very entertaining CF blanket well my box states it's good to 1350c or something along those lines. so if wool is 600c then I have chosen well .

I could add that maybe we on Forno are just all very lazy as we only want to fire once and cook for days - less effort more fun as laurentis said on my thread rather be cooking and eating. Heehehehehehe

He who fails to look at all possibilities as a person will inhibit all that they can learn.