Fire Managment and Cooking Tips

[Richardk]

Hi,

I have done a search on the forum videos and the FB Youtube page, but can't seem to find the videos I need.

Can someone kindly link a video on how to properly manage and cook pizzas (Neapolitan style 65 -75%).

I am mainly struggling with knowing how much coals and flame I need to maintain the required heat both top and bottom to be consistent. When to add more/less flame, etc.

It is a metal WFO Barrel oven about 700 x 700mm, (27 x 27 inch), cooking 1 pizza at a time, and I normally do about 36 pizzas at our family gatherings, which can take 5-6 hours, which I would love to do quicker too.

Once the fire is going, the floor can get up to over 450c (750-800F), but the challenge is to maintain constant temps long enough, and at a good range not to burn the base, etc. Some days are great, but others I cook like a NOOB!

So I am really trying to find the best way to balance floor and flame heat to get the consistency I need, and cook the proper way.

Any guidance would be great.

Thanks.

[david s]

I like this one Jamie Oliver shows you how to cook pizza in a wood fired oven.

https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAE...ood+fired+oven
It might have an ad attached that contravenes the forum policy, if so just go to youtube and search it yourself.

[Richardk]

Hi David,

I have seen this particular video, but it's not what I was looking for.

I did find one by Vito on YouTube, which is close to what I am looking for, so I will keep searching.

I am really surprised that FB don't have a video like this, as I would think this would be highly beneficial to their customers.

Thanks again.

[Giovanni Rossi]

Richardk I marvel at those who cook well in small footprint ovens. I feel I need every square inch of my 42". I have a couple suggestions:

If you're not already using one, try one of those stainless L-shaped brackets to corral the fire tight to one side. That creates a tidy pocket of heat where the wood burns in a more consistent way but still radiates heat to the floor. Since you're in AUS, I found david s's site and you can see an example there.

And, split your logs to sticks 1.5" or less. I believe this gives you greater control over your fire and allows for more rapid temp boosts when you need it.

[david s]

Hi David,

I have seen this particular video, but it's not what I was looking for.

I did find one by Vito on YouTube, which is close to what I am looking for, so I will keep searching.

I am really surprised that FB don't have a video like this, as I would think this would be highly beneficial to their customers.

Thanks again.

I don’t think you will find the solution to your barrel oven problems in a video of another oven.
Every oven design fires and performs differently.
Neopolitan pizza refers to the oven design (low dome originated in Naples, hence Neopolitan) rather than dough hydration. Their ovens are not necessarily hotter but the lower dome reduces cooking times. Also the balance between dome and floor regarding thickness and material density will change the cooking characteristics of the oven as will thickness of the dough. Generally thinner bases suit wood fired ovens as the higher temperatures tend to crisp the bases better.
They say the holy grail is 90 sec pizza, but I find in my oven 2 min is better. Maintaining a fire on the side to compensate for heat loss and get reflective heat from the flame and dome to cook the top, is most important. This fire also recharges the floor because the dome reflects heat back onto the floor with its focal point in the middle, right where you want it. If the top is not quite done you can lift the pizza to the crown of the dome (or arch in your case) for around 10 secs for a turbo boost.
If cooking for a crowd, particularly if I’ve had rain or high humidity, I’ll fire up the oven a bit the day before, to make sure it’s dry. If just cooking for myself and a few others, I don’t bother with this idea.
The best solution is to keep cooking and observe what’s happening.

[Richardk]

Hey Giovanni Rossi , I have been cutting timber down smaller lately, which gives me more control on the flame, but knowing the when and why to add the next one, is the part I am trying to learn better. I am actually in the process of making an L- shape divider, as I think it will give me a bit more room for the pizza, and less issues with coals falling on my pizzas when adding more wood. Thanks.

david s, I understand that different ovens cook differently, which is why I am looking more at the general way to cook in a WFO, as this will give me a better base, and quicken the learning process, and lessen the frustration. I can get some really great pizzas in this oven (Matador), but the consistency is just not there. Some days they are great, and other days I cook like a first timer, which is frustrating for me.

I am always cooking a minimum of 36 pizzas, so learning good fire management to improve quality, consistency and time is my goal.

I have been thinking about modifying my metal oven by adding some kind of concrete/perlite outer and improve the base, to create more consistent heat management, and temperature control, but I haven't come across anything that helps me in that area yet.

Ultimately a proper brick WFO is my goal, but in my current home I am restricted with space for a proper build, so until then I need to master what I have. Thanks again.

[david s]

Hey Giovanni Rossi , I have been cutting timber down smaller lately, which gives me more control on the flame, but knowing the when and why to add the next one, is the part I am trying to learn better. I am actually in the process of making an L- shape divider, as I think it will give me a bit more room for the pizza, and less issues with coals falling on my pizzas when adding more wood. Thanks.

david s, I understand that different ovens cook differently, which is why I am looking more at the general way to cook in a WFO, as this will give me a better base, and quicken the learning process, and lessen the frustration. I can get some really great pizzas in this oven (Matador), but the consistency is just not there. Some days they are great, and other days I cook like a first timer, which is frustrating for me.

I am always cooking a minimum of 36 pizzas, so learning good fire management to improve quality, consistency and time is my goal.

I have been thinking about modifying my metal oven by adding some kind of concrete/perlite outer and improve the base, to create more consistent heat management, and temperature control, but I haven't come across anything that helps me in that area yet.

Ultimately a proper brick WFO is my goal, but in my current home I am restricted with space for a proper build, so until then I need to master what I have. Thanks again.

Ok, now knowing what kind of oven you have, some answers and suggestions become clearer.
The Matador oven, being commercially built, at 85kg must be limited in thermal mass, to save weight/cost as well as probably limited in insulation both over the vault and under the floor because of the extra volume added that requires more outer sheathing as well as the extra cost of the insulation which is expensive. With the very high costs of freight to move both materials required for manufacture as well as transporting the final product, both weight and volume, which are the two factors determining transport costs, must be minimised by the manufacturer. Fortunately for the home builder weight of materials is far less of a concern as is the labour required for the build. Hence the home builder is able to make an oven with outstanding performance. In addition these lightweight commercial ovens, in an attempt to increase cooking floor area, use an updraft flu which is not as efficient meaning higher fuel consumption, as well as poorer flame circulation. The flame will jump to the flue entry.The more common configuration settled on by centuries of experimentation is the cross draft system where the flame is drawn across the top of the dome before being pulled across and slightly down to exit into the flue gallery, by which time there's no flame left to exit into the flue.

For wood stick to the rule "nothing thicker than your wrist" Once my oven is up to temperature I feed it with stuff smaller than that to maintain the flame on the side.

To check the thickness of the under-floor insulation try removing a couple of the floor tiles Floor tiles need to be 50mm thick for adequate thermal mass (this could also be part of your problem), to see how thick the insulation is. To check the thickness of the inner vault and the vault insulation without dismantling the oven, calculate the inner diameter compared to the outer diameter.
Maintaining the fire on the side in low thermal mass ovens or ovens with little insulation is imperative. If there is insufficient thermal mass in the floor, after cooking about 10 pizzas you may need to recharge the floor by building the fire over it again. I suspect this could be a big part of your problem with an oven of this type.

[Richardk]

Hey David,

There is no insulation under the 25mm thick floor tiles except for some sand to make the tiles level, which sit directly on sheet metal.

I have opened the oven up to see the fire blanket insulation, which is about 50mm from memory.

Having a large extended family that lives in the same street, I am always making a minimum of 36-40 pizzas. If I was making 10-12 pizzas, this wouldn't be an issue for me.

Hence, as I mentioned earlier I have considered making some modifications to the floor and outer dome, hoping for some improvements all round.

I can build things, but I wouldn't know the best way to start which this project.

Thanks

[david s]

Hi Richard,

There’s half your problem. 25 mm of floor tiles is insufficient thermal mass for an oven floor, especially if they have no insulation on the underside. Sand does a good job to level the tiles but is not a particularly good insulator. An IR temperature gun which you can buy pretty cheaply on line might be a good investment. You could shoot the temperature of the metal plate under the sand to estimate how much heat you are losing as well as using it to see what the cooking floor surface temperature is after every 5 pizzas.
Cutting and fitting some calcium silicate board under the tiles would be a good solution, but it may be difficult to purchase a small amount. The supplier might only sell full sheets. Another alternative would be to lay some 10:1 vermicrete in there and replace the floor tiles over it. Normally a 5:1 mix is used under ovens, but as you are only supporting 25mm tiles a 10:1 mix is far better. Some folk have used insulating blanket under floor tiles, but the weight of the tiles does tend to compress it a bit which reduces its insulation value. Also you may have difficulty purchasing a small amount.
You may also find that by raising the floor you could have issues with the door not fitting, as well as having to chamfer the outer edge of the floor tiles. This can be done easily with a diamond blade on an angle grinder, but beware of the dust it creates, vey dangerous to inhale. These modifications may give you some improvement, but will not solve the problem of the inefficiencies of the updraft flue, inadequate thermal mass and any non stainless steel which accelerates corrosion (how many of those old four burner BBQs do you see? A. None they’ve all rusted out)
If I were in your situation I’d be cooking up a load of pasta to supplement the pizzas, halving the number you’d need to cook.

Dave

[Richardk]

Hey David,

Thanks for the thorough advice.

The inner shell is all Stainless, as is the flue, and even through it is quite thin, I haven't seen any rust, only some discoloration from the direct flame/heat I assume.

I'm thinking the best option for me is the vermicrete.

Can I install this between the base plate and tiles, which is directly underneath the floor plate, as there is a nice cavity there, which wouldn't affect the internal tile height, plus I could probably make that about 100mm thick if needed.

Any instructions on how to best mix/measure the vermicrete?

I just bought an IR temperature gun, so will start using that.

Thanks again.

[david s]

Ok, that sounds like a plan. While any exposure to flame is the most detrimental re rusting, I’d be guessing that the plate which supports the floor is mild steel. Any other structural elements in the oven, including fixings are also more vulnerable if not stainless. Insulating under the supporting plate sounds like a much easier solution, but bear in mind that a highly conductive material in you insulation space is not ideal, especially if it is not stainless and will be exposed to both heat and moisture.
To make a vermicrete mix you should be able to buy smaller quantities of both perlite and vermiculite at Bunnings. Nursery suppliers probably only stock 100 litre bags.
Making a lean mix is important to achieve good insulation value as the density of the cement, even in a 10:1 mix is greater than the lightweight aggregate.( see attached table).
A 50/50 mix of medium grade perlite and fine grade vermiculite works nicely with a 10:1 mix. Ie 5 litre perlite 5 litres vermiculite with one litre GP cement. To make this very lean mix more workable throw in a handful of hydrated lime or powdered clay. Mix all dry ingredients well in a barrow. Water addition depends quite a lot on the grade of the aggregate used, but for mine it’s 4 litres. The water needs to be added and folded in progressively. If it pools slightly in the bottom of the barrow, that’s the correct amount. Continue to fold the mix and the grains will absorb the excess water. Wear rubber gloves to apply the mix. Not sure about your dimensions but for around 100mm thick you might need a couple of the above batches. The high water content of the mix takes some time to dry. See attached drying test.

But bear in mind that any modifications you make will void your warranty.

Vermicrete insulating slab PDF.pdf

[Richardk]

Hi David,

The floor plate is stainless like the rest of the dome, with no insulation there or exposed to it, so nothing should be exposed to flame or moisture.

Once I get this done, I will let you know how it goes with my first cook.

Warranty has already expired, so no issues there.

Thanks again for your time.